S9 E101: Identity, Belonging, & The Privilege of Travel With Journalist Emy Rodriguez

Get the show’s transcript

[00:00:00] ER: We can't change the fact that we could travel the world, but we could change how we travel it and then how we give back.

[00:00:07] YD: Welcome back to our show, everyone. This is your host, Yulia Denisyuk, an award winning travel photographer, writer, community builder, storyteller, and entrepreneur. And today we're speaking to my friend and dear colleague, Emy Rodriguez, a freelance travel journalist from Arecibo, Puerto Rico. A proud member of the LGBTQ plus community, Emy has dedicated himself to using his privilege as a travel writer to showcase and preserve underserved communities and their incomparable voices.

His writing has appeared in Conde Nast Traveler, Foders and many more magazines. Emy currently lives in Barcelona, Spain, which is how we originally connected. And he's set on becoming the first Puerto Rican to wave a Puerto Rican flag underwater at the most remote scuba diving location on earth. In this conversation, Emy and I are going to have a really honest and vulnerable discussion.

Thank you, Emy, for that, about how being queer informed Emy's career of travel writing, the privilege of traveling for leisure that I and him and so many other colleagues I know grapple with, searching for belonging and community in Barcelona and what it felt like traveling through the Middle East as a queer person.

We'll also talk about how Amman, the capital of Jordan, is so under the radar and what Emy thinks is the difference between being an immigrant and an expat. I particularly loved that part of the conversation. If you want to learn more about Emy and his work, follow him on Instagram @emyrodriguez. And we'll also link to his work and his Instagram account in the show notes as well.

This episode and this entire season of the show is brought to you by Visit Jordan. Be sure to visit myjordanjourney.com to learn more about this place. That's myjordanjourney. com. All right, now let's get started with our conversation with travel journalist Emy Rodriguez.

Emy, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to see you again and to talk to you again. How are you, my friend? You know,

[00:02:26] ER: I'm doing great. Thank you for inviting me. I'm super excited to be here and to talk to you. it's been a while, so I'm excited to catch up.

[00:02:33] YD: it's been a while, right? were talking just before hitting record here that last we spoke, I was about to move to Barcelona, where you are.

[00:02:42] ER: No, yeah, I was expecting you here. Like, I think we had, we were having gaba, near the gothic area, the gothic quarter, and we were talking about it, and I was half expecting you here within a couple months, but everything kind of, like, worked out at the end, I feel, and what you're doing now is amazing.

I think what, you know, going back to school and focusing on video and focusing on different things, I think is amazing, and I think that showcases to other writers that they just don't have to be siloed off into one thing only.

[00:03:07] YD: I love that you said that actually, because that's the evolution that I went through as well this year, you know, like we said before recording that I was just so like focused on I'm a writer, I'm a photographer. That's what I do. And that's all I do. But actually, I, yeah, I realized that no, you could be so much more, right?

I'm already a podcaster too. I'm already a teacher. I am video is something that interests me right now. So yeah, I think that's a really cool reminder everyone who is in the industry that like, Hey, you can, you can be more than one thing and that's okay. You know? So I love that. Thank you. Hmm.

[00:03:40] ER: No, that's something that I think I've especially admired about you and Karthika Gupta, is that you guys really diversify your ability to do stuff, um, which I feel like I've lacked in for a little bit, but it's really fascinating how you go from editorial to photography to teaching to, um, different things and now video and, you know, the other ventures that you're going into.

I think it's important to keep that entreprenurial mindset, if that makes sense. because at the end of the day, we are self employed. So if we don't push ourselves, we don't get paid. And this is a capitalist world. So we're, we're essentially at the mercy of our professions. But I think it's fascinating how you're able to diversify and make yourself dynamic.

I think that's something that not the everyday person would be able or has a capability to do. So I admire that a lot.

[00:04:26] YD: Yeah, thank you. Thank you. You know who, do you know Lola Akinmake? She's also in the industry. She's Sweden based. photographer, writer, TEDx speaker, book author, educator, all of those things. And she was on the podcast a couple of seasons ago, and she brought this up, this idea of being a multi, multi talented person, or being talented, or not even talented, but being interested in and good at more than one thing.

And I feel like sometimes people are just like, well, no, you've, you know. If you're a writer, you're a writer. That's it. And I just, I really, that idea of, doing more than one thing really appeals to me. So yeah, I like that. so speaking of writing your story for Condé Nast Traveler, called Returning to My Hometown in Puerto Rico, Where I Struggled to Come Out as a Teenager.

It's just such a powerful story and we're going to link to it in the show notes. So listeners, please go ahead and check it out. a, it's a beautifully written story. I've actually resonated with it too, but in a different way, because I resonated a lot with that theme of returning to where you come from and not really finding your space in there anymore or seeing the evolution of how far you've come after you've come back there, you know? And I really loved what you said that the Arecibo, the town that you're from, made you who you are, acceptable and glorious, even if you had to go elsewhere to realize it.

I mean, that line, it just, you know, it was so beautiful. So what do you love about the story? Yeah.

[00:06:03] ER: story is my story, but I wanted to reach out to other people that had similar stories or get connect to it or relate to it in different ways, because I think the, feeling of not really truly belonging in your town or where you grew up is something that a lot of people experience.

In my case, it was me being part of the queer community. and being in a place where that wasn't really well known of, um, or accepted, frankly, but I think, me writing it, it made me think of all my friends that, you know, have had similar stories of either being in a place they're from, that's not accepting of who they are, whatever it is, or being in a new place where they're not accepted.

These universal stories of not feeling right within those communities, I think I wanted to pick up on, and I think I felt like I was. Writing for those people, because I, you know, just within my own identity, I don't expect everyone to be a Latino, queer, cisgender man from, you know, Florida and Puerto Rico, and to have the same perspective.

Like, I can't, it's virtually impossible. If I find someone like that, that'll be amazing. But like, it's virtually impossible for me to expect people to understand every little thing that I've experienced, and vice versa. I can expect myself to understand everything that everyone else has experienced. So my, my goal is to kind of share something that is a little bit of commonality.

So that way we can relate on. and then from there we can build something. But I think that story in particular was really, it was really interesting because I think going back to the town, it made me realize. that I am a product of this. As much as I tried in my earlier time to avoid, you know, that, that part of myself and to leave that and never say that I was from Arecibo, Puerto Rico, I get, got to a place where now I'm proud of being from there.

I'm proud in two ways. One is very egotistical, and then the other is kind of like this is a place that made me. The egotistical part is basically, you know, I am this now. I am a journalist. I am a writer. I wrote a story for Cone Dash Traveler about that place. I don't think there's many other people doing that from that town or in that town, so it makes me feel extra special about myself, and it makes me feel glorious in that sense, but I think also it, it really made me, made me look at my, my history and why that, even though other people might not find that special, it's special to me, and I value it.

and it gives me the perspective that no one else is going to have, and I appreciate that. And I, I try to put that into my writing as much as possible, but yeah, that's one of my favorite stories that I wrote. I wrote it a few years ago, like two years ago, a year and a half ago. and I want to continue, ever since then, I've been continuing on the path of writing stories from a certain perspective, from a, a certain idea.

Like I wrote a piece about anxiety and scuba diving,

[00:08:31] YD:

[00:08:31] ER: you know, just kind of like someone that has had those things, because I feel like. stories are supposed to, articles and stories are supposed to resonate with the reader. and if you don't do that, then it's difficult to, to write a good story, if that makes sense.

[00:08:43] YD: Yeah, totally. I mean, maybe what I'm going to say now is a bit controversial. I don't know. Let's see, we'll try, we'll test it. But like, there's so much fluff out there, when it comes to the online world and what you can read on the Internet, let's say, and on top of that, there is so many other things that are competing for our attention that I feel like for something to garner someone's attention and for them to actually read it, it has to be a story like that, that connects on a deeper level, that there is some sort of a shared mindset or a shared,Experience perhaps that you can like how I resonated right now with your story, you know, because I recognize that feeling of coming back home and having that evolution.

So yeah, I feel like, I personally probably not gonna stop scrolling for A roundup of 10 best beaches to, to see in Thailand, you know, like I'm, I'm just not, but I might, and will probably stop scrolling when I see a title like that, like returning to my hometown in Puerto Rico.

You know what I mean? So.

[00:09:43] ER: It's something that I feel, ever since I've been a writer, ever since I started writing, I've always kind of resonated more with, you know, those stories that had deeper meaning, that were more profundo in in Spanish.

[00:09:54] YD: Yeah, I love that word.

[00:09:56] ER: Yeah, more heavy. Because. There are, and there's more power to the people that write about the 10 best beauties in Thailand.

Like that's necessary. That's something that's an aspect of our industry that we should empower as well. But I think in my case, I like writing something that has, a different angle. And there's, there's space for both, but I think now specifically now within our modern time with AI kind

[00:10:18] YD: I was just gonna say that.

[00:10:20] ER: my, my whole like essay format is a little bit of a survival thing as well, just because I feel like those stories about the 10 best beaches in Thailand are now written by a computer or a computer program. And I have to write stories that are about my experience or my perspective because AI can never do that.

So it's been, it's been a little bit of a survival, like, shift, if that makes sense, just so that way I get paid, even though it's not a lot, but I still get paid.

[00:10:43] YD: Yeah. feel like that too. And, What I think about right now is that this is actually where our value I think comes in as freelance contributors to publications that we get to write a story or tell a story that's honestly, no one else can, AI can't because AI doesn't have our experience or our perspective, right?

Exactly to your point. That's, that's a really wonderful point. And of course, I, I, didn't mean to like offend anyone who writes roundups, you guys, you know, it's a great piece and format. It's just that, we are competing for attention. We are competing for, you know, readership and all of that.

So that's what I tend to resonate with is those kind of profundo stories. but yeah.

[00:11:26] ER: it's something that, it goes back to the point of, like, diversifying what you're able to provide, the storytelling aspect that you mentioned earlier. and it's not just a modern thing, it's something that has been existing since the beginning of time, it is. How do we continue thriving? How do we continue being successful?

Quote, unquote, and we have to evolve. We have to change. We have to really become better and better and better. And my example is AI with my writing and the listicles and you know, the blog like post and kind of going more into an essay format. But yours is going to storytelling and video and talk where you're really a photographer, but like going on on and on and on.

So it's like creating those things of, of evolution, I think are super essential in this industry and the creative industry overall. Because if not, if you get stuck just being a writer, which I currently am now, or a photographer, it changes, it evolves, and we should have learned this when influencing became a thing but we didn't. so we have to really kind of pay attention to like what's going on there, what's going on in the world, and respond to it because if we stay put, we're gonna get left behind.

[00:12:28] YD: Yeah. Have you played around with the ChatGPT yet?

[00:12:31] ER: I have, yeah.

I mean, it's scary. It's really scary because, Grammarly, which I use for editing, Grammarly has its own chat GPT AI generator, and I put in things like, write me a story about Thailand, and it'll write an entire story about Thailand, like if someone else wrote it, and that for me is super frightening.

but I think if it's utilized in the most In a positive way. For example, pitching for us is really annoying. and it takes up like 80 percent of our, our workforce. If you put in things like, here's a pitch idea, format it for me, it'll do it automatically. That saves us time.

It helps us utilize in a different way. And I think, if we utilize it, Okay. In a positive way can be very beneficial to to storytellers. but if it's not utilized in a positive way and it kind of takes over or overwhelms us then I don't know at that point We have to do something different.

[00:13:21] YD: You are not the first person who told me in the industry that, who told me that they use chat GPT to write pitches. That's really interesting because for me, actually. I love writing pitches. well, so, because the way I do it is like, I use, This is my breadcrumb for the story, basically, you know, so it's a pitch is like the intro paragraph is often is how I write a pitch. So that later on 10 months later when somebody comes back to me and they're like, Hey, we want the story, you know, I can remember what the hell I was talking about.

but, yeah, that's, that's really interesting that you're saying that because I've definitely heard other writers uh, use chat GPT for pitch writing. So that's really cool.

I was wondering, how do you think, coming from the, uh,LGBTQ plus community, helped you or prepared you to be a writer in the travel space. Because I feel like you just have such an interesting perspective on the world. I feel like as, especially as travel writers, for sure, who are, often entering communities or entering places for the first time.

We need to be so good at, not making judgments and not making assumptions. And some are better at this than others. But, I don't know. What are your thoughts on this? Like, how do you think that has helped you in this process?

[00:14:39] ER: It's helped me, know boundaries, I think. for example, me going to the Middle East. It's helped me kind of understand that people are different than me and not to judge them. And not to rationalize their existence in my own head. I think for me it's, helped me in the sense of just understanding that everyone is different and everyone has different values and different perspectives and different views on rights and views on equality.

And it's not my place to go into your living room and tell you how to live your life. I mean, I may not agree with it sometimes, but that doesn't give me the right to, to pipe up and say your life is wrong because that's not my place. As a storyteller, my job is to observe. My job is to take notes. My job is to document, and storytell those, findings.

and I think in our industry, there's a lack of that. I feel like in our industry, there's a lot of bias. And that's great, I think that's fine, but I think we need to just be a little bit more empathetic towards each other. I wrote a piece for, about me traveling the Middle East as a queer man.

And how, what my experience was. And I end the piece with basically saying, I, as myself, as a writer, as a person, needed to stop judging the Middle East without really knowing what's going on, and focus more on how I could help, and think about the people, the queer people that are there. So I list out, like, different queer organizations in Lebanon, and I say, this is how you could help.

Instead of casting judgment, I'd rather help. and that goes also with my, my perception of how people understand my existence. Again, I don't expect people to understand, you know, where I come from or how I operate my life. So instead of shouting at you, instead of like shoving it down your throat, I'll give you the tools to understand. You take them and use them if you want to. If you don't, more power to you, you know, and that's it. So I think in my writing, I try to lead by that example because we're in a very, very aggressive world right now, either it be politically, it could be, socially, it could be on so many different levels.

And I come from the perspective, I try to come from the perspective of, you know, peace and understanding. You know, I try to have that because I hate arguing generally, but like, you know, I can't expect everyone to understand me. I can't expect to understand everyone else, but I have the ability to try. and I hope other people have that ability as well.

And I hope to inspire other people to do as well. I think it comes from my upbringing within my own family of them not being as supportive towards my identity. and until this day, I don't have a relationship with them or as a strong relationship with them, just because they don't view my identity as real.

They view it more as a choice. And that's fine, but I've gotten past the point of trying to show them the way, and I just operate and live my life in the way that I view it, and I've used those skills that I learned, those tools that I learned. within my family and my upbringing, to survive, and to, tell stories in a way that you're not offending anyone.

because I don't think that's my job. My job is to write and to document things. My job isn't to offend unless I'm doing an OpEd. you know, I think my job is a writer. I'm not a reviewer or I don't critique. There's a very big difference between those things.

[00:17:43] YD: You're like a vessel is sometimes how I think about it. You're the vessel for the story. You're not the story. So you're not like, like you said, unless it's an op ed, you're not. Putting your own personal, color on it, right? you're reporting it as it is, not as you want it to be.

[00:17:58] ER: So it's similar to that, but I think, I am putting myself in a lot of my stories, kind of showcasing how I perceive things. Um, like the Conde Nast Traveler story about me returning back to Puerto Rico. and then also some other stories, like me traveling, the Middle East as a queer man. I am putting it from my perspective, but it's never, it's never to the point of saying, um, this is wrong.

[00:18:19] YD: I see.

[00:18:20] ER: It's more of like, this is how this made me feel. This is how I reacted to it. and then this is where I went. So I think it's a very... it's different because it's like an old journalistic, like, sort of thing, but then on the same token, I'm I'm 100 percent including myself into the story.

but I'm respecting it in a certain way where it's not offensive. I don't really know how to describe it, but it's not, It's taking over the story, but it's not, taking over your perspective of the story.

[00:18:45] YD: You guys should also read this article. We're going to link to it as well. I believe it was for AFAR Magazine where you wrote about this and, In that piece, you talk about your experience of traveling to the Middle East, and wanted to ask you, like, there are so many misconceptions also about the region, and I specifically loved reading, you said in your piece that Amman, in Jordan, my favorite place in the region for sure, it felt more progressive, like it was inviting me to stay, relax, and learn. about their language, their art and their food.

So tell me more about this experience you had in Amman. And I was so happy to read that because honestly, I feel like Amman often gets overlooked. in Jordan, you know, people don't really spend that much time there. They don't really like, you know, they go to Petra and all these other places, but I was just so happy to read that.

So tell me what made you feel that way when you were there.

[00:19:41] ER: I think, for me going there, you're right, it gets overshadowed by Petra and Wadi Rum or something. But for me going there, I was really, I had no, no idea what it was. you know, obviously our perceptions as Westerners towards the Middle East or towards Asia is very skewed, um, or very biased.

so I tried to be as non, not, have any assumptions. but when I got there, I was so amazed by the city. I think it reminded me so much of New York. I remember taking a tour of one of the neighborhoods and I'm like, this could be New York. This could be Chicago.

This could be certain parts of like LA or Miami. And I mean that with a sense of like really cool coffee shops and, you know, like graffiti art, art installations everywhere and graffiti and, you know, tags and things like that. And I was so impressed by it that I honestly felt that I could hang here. Me, with my own identity, with my own self, I could hang here and have a good time.

and then I didn't really participate in the, the nightlife scene, but I heard the nightlife scene is really active. And I was just impressed, and I was just like, this is a cool city. And Jordan isn't just Petra. Petra's a big part of it, yes, but there's so much more. And I use that frame for every Middle Eastern city, for every city that's in that part of Asia.

Because there's so much more. I think our perspective as Westerners, we, we kind of, specifically my own, I'm a millennial, so I grew up during, 9 11, I grew up during, you know, a whole bunch of other things. So, my idea of the Middle East for a long time was and then going there for the first time, my first country was Doha in Qatar.

Going there for the first time, I was so impressed, I was so amazed. Not only because of the progressiveness of it. It's not progressive in the sense of like, there's a Starbucks. It's more progressive in the sense that simple things like seeing the, the older buildings that had, I forgot the exact thing of this, but they had a way of, like, insulating it, to create A C because it gets hot, it's a desert, so like, a lot of places are deserts, so it gets really hot. For me, seeing that made me think of how progressive it is because those little things, just kind of showcased to me that It's not huts in the middle of nowhere, there's more. and then seeing the creative side, seeing the art, seeing the fashion, seeing even the practice of Islam, I think for me was really fascinating.

Coming from a non religious perspective, I was entranced by the call to prayers. I didn't understand anything that was going on, but, or hearing it, like five times a day, but I was like amazed by it. Like, I could not stop listening to it. I had to stop in the street whenever I heard it and just listen because it was beautiful.

It was frankly beautiful. I looked it up later, but, you know, I didn't understand what was going on, and it really moved me in a certain way, and I think for me, again, from a non religious perspective, I think I had a spiritual moment during that time, and it wasn't tied to Islam or Christianity or Judaism.

It wasn't tied to anything. It was just tied to my own spirituality with the sun, you know, and I had a moment, and for me, just being in an environment like that, in, Amman, where you have that historical, religious side or spiritual side, and then you have, like, amazing murals everywhere, cafes, traffic, people yelling on the street, like, like, that, I was so amazed by everything, like, that for me was, like, It's kind of like a really great moment and it showcased that, you know, my perceptions were wrong.

and I wanted to like kind of showcase that in the article that I wrote. I don't know if I did a good job at it, but it's something that I would go back to Amman like right away because I think there's so much there, you know, and any other city that's in that region. I feel like there's like Lebanon has been on my list for quite some time now, but, you know, those cities just, there's so much like cool stuff. and you know, I, I definitely want to go back, but I think people will be surprised if they just step out of the Petra and the Wadi Rum thing. If they just stay a few days in Amman and just like check out the art scene or check out the cafe scene, the coffee scene, or check out, the nightlife scene.

I think they're going to be really impressed and I hope that, people do it a lot more because I think it's a pretty awesome city.

[00:23:41] YD: Oh, my goodness. so many things I want to say, to what you just said. First of all, can we go to Amman together like ASAP, like this weekend, maybe let's do that. Let's do a trip because everything that you're saying about Amman, this is what I've been also saying for the longest time now, whenever I have the opportunity, because I absolutely feel the same way.

You know, I feel like the city doesn't get its due. It's one of the most vibrant cities in the Middle East, but for whatever reason, it's just so under the radar, like completely under the radar, but the creative scene there is incredible. And in fact, We have an episode this season. that's going to reveal some of that creative scene in Amman. So definitely check that out if you're listening and if you want to know more.

But the other thing I wanted to mention is that I resonate. So this is, see, this is why we're friends. And this is why I was excited to move to Barcelona and be your neighbor, because like we, I feel like we connect, on a really good level, but like what you were saying about spirituality and how the quotes of prayer that are done, how it moves you.

Emy, this has been my experience since day one. Like, I'm not religious. I'm spiritual. I'm not religious. Every time I hear that adhan, it moves me so much. And I, I don't know, my eyes well up and I always take a moment and I miss it. I'm not afraid to say that I'm actually, I miss it. We're like, that's one of my favorite things about Istanbul, for example, is to hear that adhan everywhere in Jordan as well.

And I've been researching too. I've been reading up on it is that the Adhan actually lowers your pressure. It's specifically on that specific frequency in which they sing it. It's the frequency that lowers our blood pressure.

[00:25:18] ER: That's super fascinating. Yeah,

[00:25:21] YD: here's what else I want to say.

How interesting is the human experience? Because for you and I, like, we don't have, let's say, Maybe it's safe to say that we don't have any preconceived notions about what Islam is, or we try to be aware, or like come at it with an open mind. when we hear the call to prayer, we find it beautiful.

But I want to tell you a short, really fast story about a friend of mine who lives in Jordan. who is from Jordan and who has a completely different relationship with the adhan because for them adhan a religion that is in a lot of way restricting them. And so every time they hear the Adhan, they want to close the window, and every time I hear Adhan, I want to open the window.

And so, to me, it's just such an interesting example of how subjective, honestly, every single experience is, because we all, come to everything with our life, our ideas, our thoughts, what happened to us, you know, and I think that goes back to what we were saying about earlier about travel journalism and how we come to it is like, I think even that like awareness of that is a great step towards being a great storyteller in this space because you're like, oh my god, like everything I do influences how I process it and so, so with everyone else around me.

[00:26:42] ER: That's a very good point because I feel like me being a queer traveler in Jordan, hearing the adhan is a very different experience of someone being a queer person in Amman, hearing it. and there is nothing I could do to change that. There is nothing I could do to change the perspectives or change the existence.

But what I can do is be aware, because that changes how I navigate the world. And it makes me, at the end of the day, when you're aware, you appreciate things on a different level. And you are more, in my opinion, more open to different things. and I, I value that a lot. Because I feel like, I don't know, it's just, it's, I was a traveler during that period.

I was a tourist. So if I would have grown up there and been who I am, I probably would not be super happy, you know? Like, I probably would not, would not be having a spiritual moment in the middle of the street. Like, I probably would be in a different, like, sort of scenario. and I need to understand that, and I need to be aware of that, and appreciate that and understand my privilege. Understand where I come from, and how I come from a different perspective, and a different privilege.

so it's important. I think every traveler, not even if you're just, not even if you're a writer or if you're a journalist or a storyteller, you need to understand that when you go to a different place, it's very different from the people that are living there.

You're on vacation. You're traveling. Your existence there is temporary. Their existence is permanent. How does that differ? so I think that's a question that I think everyone should ask themselves. Like, next time they go to the Caribbean, next time they go to Miami even, or next time they go anywhere else, think of like what your existence, how that impacts the people that are living there.

But then also think of your, of their existence once you're gone. And I think for a lot of travelers, that would really make them kind of like cognizant of little things like buying tchotchkes, you know, eating at restaurants. You know, doing this or that, they would actually understand that it's different on the difference on the other side.

and if I ever have children, I think that's the biggest thing that I want to show them is that the world is different and we need to appreciate it. and we need to value it. And we also need to know how to navigate it. Not everything is a vacation. Not everything is a Marriott. No offense to Marriott.

I love But, you know, like, not everything is a Disney World, you know? and we need to understand that. A friend of mine, actually, from Chicago, Wendy, she took her kids to India and to different countries, around the world. And, her kids are, teenagers at this point. But I thought that was really special because she herself is a travel writer, so she already has that sort of like ability.

Her children don't, and by teaching them at a young age that the world is different, hopefully, like, knock on wood, it shows them that they should be appreciative. They should be appreciative of what they have and also what other people have or don't have, and understand that. I went to Thailand. My first, like, international trip, as a travel journalist was to Thailand and Phuket.

And we went to, like, a Muslim village, somewhere on the island. I don't remember exactly where. And I remember being around the village and everyone was looking at us because we all looked different. we all looked like, you know, just not from there. We were all, it was obvious that we weren't from there.

and I remember just like looking at them and thinking they're happy. This is their life. Their life is very different from my life. I was living in Miami at the time. It's very different, but they were happy. And that shifted my perception of being successful. That shifted my perception of material things.

That shifted my perception of being a traveler, because my butt loves central AC, you know? Uh, and things like that. Meanwhile, other people had other ways of like, cooling themselves. And by seeing that, or by being exposed to that, it made me rethink my relationship with what I have, or what I don't have.

And I think I've evolved since then. I think I've definitely gotten to a point where, I do things differently. And it's only because of travel. It's only because of those experiences. And I hope other people have those, those sort of experiences. Because I think at the end of the day, those people, that Muslim village in Phuket, there's nothing wrong with their lives.

They're living their best lives and they're happy and they're great. And they look happy. So who am I to judge them and say, Oh, they don't have this. They don't have a McDonald's. They don't have this. Like, so many things. And I, I aspire to that. I, I look up to that. because they're happy. And in Miami, I was not happy.

you know, it's like, for me, who is winning? and that's a big question. I think everyone should ask themselves when they're traveling to a place that's different from their home. Is, are you really winning just because you're coming from a place that has, I don't know, like a, a smart car?

[00:30:58] YD: Like, random example, like is that really, the ultimate version of success? the ultimate version of being a happy person? In my opinion, no, that's different for everyone. But, for me, no, and I think I learned that through travel. Man, there's so many themes that you're raising up there. you know, have the same aspiration as you that if I ever have children, I want to give them the best education there is, which is to see as many places around the world as possible as young as possible, because, you know, I believe that that just raises better Citizens of the world.

There's this thought that I actually recently had, and I didn't come to any resolution or any conclusion with that thought, and it's not a groundbreaking thought by any means, and other people have come to that as well, but it came back to me recently that you talked about this idea of privilege, And if we look at globally, at people who move around the world, move through the world, not for escaping something horrible in their countries, but because they can. It is such a small and privileged group of people. Because on a global scale, most of the people are not able to do that around the world.

And the thought that I had was, how do I rectify that with my desire to travel, for example? Or with my urge to move through the world and to explore and to see and to connect? You know what I'm talking about? Like, I don't have an answer to that or a conclusion, but I think about it a lot, you know?

[00:32:31] ER: I know exactly what you're talking about and I don't think there is an easy answer. I think, I'll give you my example of moving to Spain. I don't view myself as an expat. I view myself as an immigrant. And I like to move in those circles because I feel like the expat experience is a very privileged one. and, but I still kind of like am aligned in that way because I'm American. Um, and my income is different.

[00:32:54] YD: It's like you're towing all these different circles, right? You're like one leg in this and one

[00:32:58] ER: yeah.

[00:32:59] YD: this. It's, yeah.

[00:33:00] ER: And I don't think there's an easy answer because, you know, there isn't. You're, you're navigating the world in a different way because you can. the only thing that I can say is to just give back, to use your privilege for good. so if you do find an opportunity that you can give back, or you can write in our case, or, you know, be a photographer or a videographer, and you're able to give back in that way, give back.

because we can't do anything else. we can't change the fact that we could travel the world, but we could change how we travel it and then how we give back. and it's important, because if not, then we're just like everyone else that calls themselves an expat. and that for me has a negative connotation, and I don't associate myself with expats, because I feel like that experience is, it's very inauthentic, and you're doing something, you're not really immersed in yourself and in a destination, and you're not really understanding your privilege of moving to a place where some people have to take refuge in, or some people can't, like you mentioned.

it's, it's a very different experience and people need to understand that. And I hope that, you know, with modern times, people are understanding that, to move, to financially, emotionally, to shift in that way is a privilege, because for a lot of people it isn't.

so I think people hopefully should come to that understanding. Not to say that I, I think everyone should understand this because if you're moving from like, wherever to wherever, you know, like, it's okay. But like, I don't know. I just think that you have to move with grace. and yeah, I think that, that entails a lot, but yeah.

[00:34:24] YD: Emy, are you a writer or something? You're so good with words.

[00:34:28] ER: No, no, no.

[00:34:30] YD: No, but some of the things you've said today, they're just like, really, we have this expression, like a balm, balm, B A L M, balm for the soul. You know, they, they like sued me, like, what you said about giving back, what you said about moving through the world with grace, you know, or even what you said earlier, that phrase of.

You know, the Arecibo made you glorious, like that is just so beautiful and, I don't know. Sometimes I feel like we are preaching to the choir with these conversations because it's like, yes, we, and I would want to believe that everyone who's listening to the podcast is feeling the same way that, we hopefully are more aware of all these issues.

But then when I look out into the world, I see. a lot of rhetorics that are completely in the opposite direction. And my thought is then, well, how do we start that dialogue? Because that's the dialogue that needs to happen most urgently.

[00:35:22] ER: yeah. I think, I had a recent experience where I was discussing sexual assault within the queer community, um, with a friend. I was having a phone call and somehow it shifted over to that conversation. he mentioned something that happened to a friend of his or that almost happened to a friend of his.

And then that turned into a two hour long conversation about sexual assault in the queer community. And the end result, him having a very different perspective than I had, which is completely fine. But at least we had that conversation. At least we had that rhetoric. Because it wasn't, it wasn't aggressive.

It wasn't, you don't understand me, I don't understand you, and that's it. It was more of just saying opposing opinions. and I think he kind of, I understood him differently, and he understood me differently, which was good. but I think it's just having those simple conversations, you know, sometimes I, I hate small talk.

Like, that's one thing that it's always been about me. It's a small talk is like, small talk is, kind of like the bane of my existence, but also, you know, when these deep conversations come around, I can't control myself. like within five minutes of meeting someone, I'm having like a deep existential crisis about the human condition.

Like, but I value that. I like that because that's important. Some people don't operate that way, and that's completely fine, but I think if we have more of those conversations, I think it's important. and, you know, it could just be a simple phone conversation, or it could be, I don't know, a podcast like this, or it could be a video that you're creating, or a piece that I'm writing.

there could be so many ways of invoking conversation, that are non aggressive, that are non violent, that are, that are just sitting down and listening, and speaking. I think we don't do that as much in the world now. We don't listen. and I think in conversation, I always find it useful to speak, but then also to listen.

it's a 50 50 sort of arrangement in my head. and sort of respond. I think it's super important to what the person said. because sometimes we pretend we're listening, but it's not active listening. I think it's important to like really just like take in what the person is saying and kind of arrange your response towards that.

and then I think that showcases to people that you are interested, that you are showing a sense of kindness by giving them acknowledgement. and I think that's important and I think there's of that a lot in certain like climates. but yeah.

[00:37:25] YD: Maybe something for me to think about, about who to invite next on the podcast. So, so we can have some of these conversations. That's, that's really interesting.

So it seems to me that this idea of belonging, identity, and home. Or looking for a home or perhaps building a home or creating a home where you are is important to you both, in your work, but also in some of the personal conversations we've had.

And you've mentioned, you know, that you've I moved to Barcelona recently, and that's how we connected in the first place. Shout out to Kartika, who connected us. So, you know, it sounds fabulous, Barcelona. And by the way, I, like we already mentioned, I was going to be there too, but my plan has changed.

it sounds fabulous, but I'm sure it has had its difficulties too. And you've kind of touched upon this a little bit with your example of being in the immigrant space rather than an expat space. So... Tell me, what were some of the challenges that you've experienced while moving there?

[00:38:22] ER: There's been a lot. I think, for me as a brown man, it's been a very different experience, towards, against someone that is like an expat, an American expat. And I think for me, I've been challenged in that way. in the beginning, I felt like there was two different versions of myself.

There was a American Emy that spoke English like a suburban kid or suburban person. Or there is Emy who habla como un puertorriqueño, you know, like habla like speaks like a Puerto Rican person. those two people were having very different experiences in Spain, in Barcelona. And

I think it speaks to the immigrant experience a little bit.

and how I had the privilege to code switch, and be American and have that safe space. but I think that, that was a big part of it, and I think not really being adjusted to that. I think in every environment that I've lived in, there's always been a healthy amount of diversity. There's always been a healthy amount of just different people.

I'm a different person, you know, just like cultures, ethnicities, lifestyles, everything. Like literally always been a, a rainbow of different things. and moving here, it's been very different. and I had to adjust to that. and also to understand other people and to not come across as like an obnoxious, like, semi American person.

[00:39:35] YD: yeah. Yeah.

[00:39:36] ER: and, I had to shift my perception a little bit and I had to shift kind of how I navigated Barcelona. Simple things, very simple things. I'll give you an example of discussing, salaries.

[00:39:47] YD: mm

[00:39:48] ER: something that we talk about freely is how much we make and how much we don't make. And how much we could afford, how much our rent is, you know, or our mortgage is or whatever it is.

in this part of Spain, it's a very different, culture towards that. And in the beginning I was saying, oh yeah, I made this much when I was working full time. And I made, I'm making this much for this project and I'm making this. people were kind of like, that's not cool.

[00:40:08] YD: Wow.

[00:40:09] ER: yeah, people weren't really receptive towards it because...

In this case, the incomes are lower and you just culturally don't talk about stuff like that. So I was coming across very offensively just by discussing those things. And it wasn't like I was like showing, I, I hope I wasn't, but it wasn't like I was like showing off by saying I was getting this much for this.

It was more of just like sharing, you know, like, oh yeah, I was working on this travel projects and I made tk, TK where I made this amount of money, and I kind of like sharing it in conversation. for them, it's very different for, for Catalonians, for Spaniards, it's very different and I had to learn to adjust to that.

So now whenever I do have those conversations about money, I keep it to myself or I talk to my American friends.

[00:40:48] YD: Yeah, I mean, I can re I can relate to that too, honestly. Like that's, that experience. what do you like about living there?

[00:40:55] ER: I like just the vibe.

[00:40:56] YD: Hmm

[00:40:57] ER: You know, one thing that I've been saying since I moved here is that in my neighborhood in Gracia, there's a lot of like open air plazas. where there's restaurants and there's bars and things like that. And people spend literally all day there drinking wine and beer and smoking cigarettes from 10 a.

m. to like 9 p. m. And they're not drunk. They're not like crazy or doing anything obscenely. Their kids are playing in the background with pigeons or other little kids. Like It's a perfect environment in my head, and I love that. Like, I love that laid back, sort of nonchalant, just view on the world.

And it's the perfect environment where I would want to raise a family.

[00:41:34] YD: it's not, you know, stigmatizing alcohol. It's not stigmatizing smoking cigarettes.

It's what it is. And if I ever have a child, that's, it's going to be in this environment.

[00:41:46] ER: Because the way the, I mean, the way the U. S. is going anyways, like, there's a few problems with that that I won't get into, but like, you know, I think, that for me just holds a lot of value. And that's something that I noticed right away, and that's something that I still appreciate. it's just like sitting in an open air plaza, having a tapa or a bocadillo, and drinking cava, or drinking wine, it's mostly wine, drinking wine, and just...

Being there existing in the world. I feel like that that's the biggest thing and yeah, it's just it's humble here I feel like that that's another thing over here. It's it's very humble and I really appreciate that because I've been in an environment Talking about Miami and New York Where it's not as much. And I feel like it's more about community. And like you mentioned, that's something that I'm always talking about because that's what I want. and for me, when you're in a place that's all about community, I want to be in there. I want to be a vital member of the community. I want to be someone that people rely on and also have people that I rely on. and I want a child to be raised in that sort of like world, if that makes sense.

[00:42:42] YD: It does, it does, absolutely. And the funny thing for me is that this is what I've been looking for for the past six years as well. I've been looking for a community and I never thought I would find it in Chicago. And I just realized that this year I'm like, I want to move to Barcelona. I want to move to the end of the world.

I want to move away from here and I actually realized that it was here all along, but I wasn't ready to see it until now, you know, it's just, I don't know, it's funny how life works sometimes, when you're ready to see something, it presents you with, with something beautiful, you know, but I, I relate that to that sense of having a community so much.

And, I hope that you continue building a beautiful community there in Barcelona. And I hope that you and I can catch up over a cava in one of those open air plazas really soon, because that sounds just absolutely lovely.

[00:43:36] ER: yeah, no, definitely.

[00:43:37] YD: Amazing. Yeah,

[00:43:38] ER: Just one note though, I think what you're, what you said about sometimes not seeing things for what they are. That's having that ability to take a step back and appreciate things or be present, I think is massive. So kudos to you. Like, congrats to you for doing that.

And it doesn't always take a global move to Barcelona, Spain or anywhere else. Sometimes just looking at what you have and where you're at can really create that sense of community or create whatever it is you're longing for, whatever it is you want. Yeah, so, congrats.

[00:44:09] YD: Thank you. Thank you. Uh,Emy, I, I want to keep talking to you. We talk so well together and, I wish we were together in person though, so I could give you a hug too.

But, we're going to start wrapping up here, but I wanted to ask you, so, you've been on a journey, I think, too.

And again, I think that's why we connected in the first place. Connected so deeply in the first place because it seems to me that we've been on kind of similar journeys in a lot of ways. So tell me what is delighting you the most right now? And what's coming up for you that makes you really delightful about where you are in the world or where you are in life at the moment?

[00:44:47] ER: So, currently there's nothing really massive happening in my life, outside of like the writing and the traveling, which is a different thing. But what I'm most excited about, is the challenge that I'm gonna have. the holidays are coming up. I'm planning on spending it here in Europe.

You know, I'm excited about that. I'm excited about the possibility of hanging out with my family. A queer community that I'm forming here in Barcelona. I'm excited about the potential relationships I'm going to have that I already have and I don't have. I'm excited about just, the unknown, because I've been here about a year and a half, but I'm still kind of new in the city and I'm excited for what that means. I'm excited for the future, for the hope. I'm excited for hope. That's it. I don't want to come on, come across too biblical, but like,

I think, I'm definitely really excited for hope because, you know, I think we relate in a lot of ways and not everything is as rosy as we sometimes paint it.

And I think for me, I'm excited for the hope. I'm excited for what's next. Cause, life's a journey as well as a comedy. but I feel, I feel like I'm, emotionally ready for the journey.

[00:45:46] YD: I love that. I love that so much. And I, and I think again, I feel very similar right now because that's I feel about Chicago right now. The possibility of meeting new people, of experiencing new things, it's funny, like, for me, that was always the travel. Is where I got that from and not at home.

Like I always looked forward to those new things and connections and everything when I'm traveling. But lately, you know, cause I haven't been traveling so much because of school. And, I'm getting all those things in the city that I'm staying at. And how cool is that? Like that is a new, new experience for me, you know.

[00:46:19] ER: Yeah, no, definitely. Yeah, it's

an adventure on its own, you know?

[00:46:22] YD: Absolutely. Absolutely. Although it might not sound as fabulous to our listeners are like, wait, you're not traveling to Botswana or the Arctic Circle anymore. You're staying in Chicago. What?

[00:46:33] ER: I mean, everything is relative,

Chicago's a really cool city, too. Like, if you were, like, in, I don't know, North Dakota, I would question it. But you're in Chicago, so it's fine.

[00:46:42] YD: And We need to redo for you because you told me that horrible story about Chicago, but we'll keep it for another time on the podcast.

So yeah, We talked about, some deep things and, I, I appreciated your honesty and your vulnerability on this conversation and I hope that, you have a really beautiful holiday season in Spain and that you continue on this journey of, of discovery and, and growth and building that community for yourself.

And I hope to see you in Chicago sometime soon, too. That would be lovely.

[00:47:14] ER: Maybe soon. Maybe, sometime soon. After the new year.

[00:47:18] YD: After the sun comes back to this part of the world, right?

[00:47:20] ER:

thank you for opening the space and thank you for sharing as well and, creating what I equate to as a safe space for dialogue. I really like that. we need more of those. So, thank you for having me., thank you for, for having me.

[00:47:31] YD: Thank you so much for listening to our podcast today. If you've been enjoying listening to our show, please take a moment to leave us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode on social media. Our lovely theme music this season, Abbad El Shams, is provided by Rawan Roshni, a Palestinian Balkan singer based in Jordan who experiments across genres.

Our partner this season is Visit Jordan. My name is Yulia Denisyuk and I will see you next week. Take care and safe travels.