S3 E31: Breaking Stereotypes with photographer Alina Rudya

Get the show’s transcript

Alina: [00:00:00]  It's okay. Not to be good at something in the beginning that if you failed once doesn't mean that you should stop and never touch it ever again.

And I think for women, especially, this could be a really good source of self confidence and inspiration because we're learning women are very often judged twice or three times as hard. In comparison to guys or boys or men. And I think as women, we should really stop judging ourselves so hard.

So if we fail, like we just stand up and do it again, or do something else with the same confidence instead of judging ourselves and thinking that we're not worthy.  

Yulia: [00:00:38] Welcome to the genius women podcast.  I'm your host, Yulia, Dennis yuck and award winning travel photographer and writer  with work in some incredible publications like  national geographic  farm magazine and more.  And this year  you see my name in places like   Conde Nast traveler.  I'm on a mission to help other women who wants to grow their trouble, storytelling, careers, go after their dreams  while feeling supported, worthy, and bold. If you're ready to ditch your fear and doubts to the side,  step into your brilliance and take action on your dreams. You're in the right place. Let's go. 

 Hey everyone. We're back back this week with a conversation with Alina Rodea Alena is an award winning lifestyle and travel photographer and digital creator based in Berlin.  I've been following Alina on Instagram for a long time, and I've been so inspired by her work and her efforts in building. A community of female creators in travel and beyond  Alena is the founder of Belle.

Collective is a female creators community with a common goal of using visual storytelling to break the stereotypes about female travel and creative choices. And I love the mission of the balcony.  In our conversation, we discussed a range of topics, including Elena's path, into travel photography, those stereotypes that still plague us today, gender roles in our society and how they affect our work.

If art can exist without the public, seeing it. And so, so much more,  I really enjoyed our conversation with Elena and I hope you will too. Let's get started. 

 Yulia: [00:02:23] All right. So Lena, welcome. Welcome. Welcome to our podcast. I'm so excited to have you on our show today. 

Alina: [00:02:30] thank you for inviting me. How you. 

Yulia: [00:02:32] Hi, we've been talking on Instagram so much. We've met on Instagram, I think, for the first time.   I've been watching your work and, following your journey for awhile. And I'm very inspired by you and all your work and everything you're doing.

So, um,I'm super excited that you're on the show today and you can share your thoughts with our listeners. To 

Alina: [00:02:52] Well, this makes me.

blush for sure. Thank you for all the comments. This is definitely a like a self-esteem booster.Yulia: [00:03:01] 

which is funny that you say that because I've taken it upon myself to do this actually more, more often and be more vocal about my admiration for other women, because I think we don't do this often enough. You know, if you are somebody, why not share it with them, right. It's such a good feeling and it's true.

So.

Alina: [00:03:19] Well, Yeah.

I mean, sometimes it just doesn't come naturally. I admire a lot of women, but sometimes I feel like it's really hard for me to like, kind of, express my feelings without sounding like. You know, in this kind of way where the people are just questioning why, why she is so nice to me, 

but I think it's actually, I've noticed then when somebody comes to me and tells me some compliments, I definitely take it.

 like I I'm really happy about it. So I guess we should really do it because if we're happy, when somebody gives us a compliment or admires our work, then definitely people would be. 

Yulia: [00:03:55] Yeah, exactly. Exactly. And yeah, I think, feel like we need to do it more often in general, because that also helps Building this environment of support rather than competition, right? That's I think part of it.  So, tell me about this image that is one of the um, most favorite images of yours   we'll link it to the show notes and you guys can see it as well, but it looks so it's a real to me.

It's like, they're floating in space almost. There's these two people in the water, but the more I look at it, the more it feels like there's sort of in the sky floating or something like. Tell me more about the story behind this image?

Alina: [00:04:33] whoa, this is a drone image, as you might tell. And uh, of course I have like a lot of favorite 

images of mine from different periods of my life from different projects. Some are more serious than others. And this one is probably not so serious. Like, there's not such a huge concept behind it.

There's actually two of 

my friends 

in S swimming pool in a hotel. 

I think it's Villa destined turnover like Como. And I remember I wanted to take this image like ahead it already in my head. And You know, it was quite cold in the morning, 6 in the morning before everybody was up. So they had to swim in this cold water.

And I think that positions they're in there, like one of them is definitely a little bit like awkward.   that unofficial name for this picture is froggies because I think that it's like something cute. And at the same time, You know, this is like one of 

those images where you look at it and you were immediately drawn to it because it looks a little bit like a painting.

It's very minimalistic and it's also like two women, just a, you know, a swimming off It's not trying to make them look. Any better or any worse. It's also just basically cool image over summit holiday, which, Yeah.

you, you look at any 

immediately have like some positive emotion about it. And I think like sometimes just a positive emotion from looking at a picture is all you need.

And this is probably at this period of time, I think is, is like one of my favorites, for sure. Especially from my like travel pictures and not such a serious work. This is definitely one of my things. 

Yulia: [00:06:06] Yeah, no, I can, I can totally see that. and I love the, you, you said that you're showing these two women just as they are. You're not trying to make them look anything other than what they are. I find that is a theme that runs throughout your work. and we'll get into it for sure today, which is, you know, one of the reasons why I love your work is because of that.

 so tell me, so you are this very successful travel photographer, creator you've won awards. So when I was preparing for the show, I saw that, oh my goshone of Smithsonian's photo competition. you work with different clients like Mercedes, like Nikon, Samsung, and others. You've published several books.

So you're a very accomplished creator. Did you always know that you wanted to be in the creative industry or how did  this body of work, this path happened for you and also what were you dreaming about? as a.

Alina: [00:07:00] I think as a.

child, I wanted to be a VI agent because I loved X-Files and I was in love with Devin  and agent molder.  So I really wanted to be, be an FBI agent, but like, I I'm originally from Ukraine. So there was no FBI and Ukraine back then. And I think that this was quite. Uh, I mean, it was not really a dream.

It was just like a cool thing. I was thinking about badge regarding photography and creative industry. I actually wanted to be a photographer and travelers since I was quite young.  my father was an amateur photographer. He was actually a nuclear physicist, but at the same time, he was also taking pictures and we had like, Dark room in our bathroom.

And like, we had a lot of film cameras all around the house and he he was really one of those like really annoying photographers who would take every picture,  right now everybody's doing it with a phone back then he was doing it with a camera. And instead of wanting to pose for him, I was always like, oh no, no, this picture is again.  But at the same time, he really like this really evoked my. Passion for photography. And I remember I've got my first camera when I was 14 or 15 and it was a film camera. Then I got my first digital one. And honestly, I didn't know how to make it a career because I was studying in Ukraine and we didn't really have like any photography schools or there was no really other than if you wanted to start like study painting or classical art, there was no like opportunities really.

So I actually. Studied political science. First, I started really young with 16 hour day, started my, with my bachelor's degree. I had my bachelor's with 20. 

I had my master's with 21 and then I got another master's in journalism. So I was studying quite a lot. And then I realized that this is not what I want to do.

I really want to do photography and probably if not in Ukraine that I have to go abroad. So I went to Germany. I applied her photo school, got in. 

There was some turmoil with the visa. Then I got the visa. So it was a long, it was a long path. But then finally I studied in Berlin that I did an exchange semester in Parsons, school of design.

So studied quite a lot. So yeah, I think you think about it. I think. Yeah, good quarter of my life is just basically studying, but yeah, that's, I wanted to do it and it was a longer path than probably most people nowadays, especially young people with Instagram immediately, but that's What, I want to do.

And I'm doing. 

Yulia: [00:09:31] so this is really interesting because a lot of people that I interview that are on this path, a lot of us, myself included, we didn't go to school for. You know, for photography, for writing we just sort of entered it from a very different space. So I'm curious, do you think going to school for photography like that school in Berlin, and then that exchange program in Parson, one thing you think gave you that you are most grateful for from that experience.

Alina: [00:10:02] Honestly, I think if I hadn't a different. way of pursuing photography. If, for example, I could travel back then without like getting a student visa, because as Ukrainian, I had a visa to actually live in Germany. if I had an opportunity to just do whatever I want, without all this restrictions, I would probably even not consider studying.

But at the time I wanted to study the techniques. 

I wanted to study law. and that's what I did in  school. in Berlin for two years, I 

actually did the black uh, the dark 

room. And, you know, the printing process, developing process actually learned how to, work with the lights nowadays, I would definitely consider if I had a chance now, like if I was younger and actually were starting, I would just consider.

Like assisting a photographer. I think that nowadays it's actually, especially, it helps with the business side of things because after all, we all want to be artists, but then, you know, I think the combination of artists as minerals with some business skills, it really helps with actually having a successful career, which also brings you money I mean, basically successful career.

It means not at all. Being published, but also being paid  for your work. And I think it's also important. So I think my path has it was, yeah, it was windy, but for, for obvious reasons, in my case, I think nowadays not everybody has to go that way. it was my way in order to pursue the life I wanted.

And the traveling I wanted, which was not really accessible so easily back then. as a person with a Ukrainian passport.  I just took the opportunities I've had and also of course, going to Parsons really helpful. Because I feel that I need some structure when I'm learning something and in Berlin uh, no matter how good and renowned the school was, it was very free.

And for some people, it is helpful, but not for my ADHD it brains because I really need some structure in order to succeed. Because if I'm giving too much, three time, I'm not going to learn anything on my own. I mean, I have ideas, but in actually like working on them as, as the hard part. 

Yulia: [00:12:16] yeah. Structure is really huge. And I hear that a lot too, from a lot of people that particularly in careers like this, right? In, in, in creative careers like that, a lot of people need structure in order to be able to. You know, make, something out of it.  So you went to school, you, you learned all the sort of fundamentals, which is incredible.

And then, you're back in Berlin. How do you go about getting those first clients and, you know, establishing yourself in the industry.

Alina: [00:12:46] Well, I think I was just lucky because honestly, if I would have to look for clients right now, I'm actually it will be probably harder because I never, I'm not good at approaching you. I mean, I'm good at approaching people. It's just that I don't, I wouldn't even know where to look. And I got really lucky that, you know, while I was studying. I've got my first smartphone. And after a while I, I started with Instagram and I was posting just some random pictures I took with my phone. Still. I try to be artistic it wasn't. Yeah. Many photos of my food at all. So I was still doing it as a photographer. And then after a while I became a suggested user and Instagram, which is not a thing right now, but it was back in the days when Instagram just started, they wanted to attract more and more people on the platform.

So they would take a few users a week or two in each two weeks and they would put it on the suggested list, which they will then push onto every new subscriber or follower, basically user of the platform. And I was one of them for several times. And so I've gained recognition, some following.

And of course, the moment where you get following, like the companies and different advertising agencies and social media agencies that they notice you and they start offering you. Things and jobs. And that's basically how it started. think I got probably the first 

40,000 followers and that's when my first job happened. 

Yulia: [00:14:13] Amazing. Amazing. 

what would you say to someone who is sort of that then uh,  doing this in the landscape today, right? Because like you mentioned too, Instagram doesn't have suggested users anymore and growing a platform, even from my own experience, growing on that platform is so much more difficult now.

And to stand out is so much different. what would you say to someone who is sort of looking at that as, as one of the ways of attracting clients attracting projects?

 Alina: [00:14:39] well, I think that social media presence is still very, very important nowadays because people mostly still look at your, you know, they would still go on your website and a lot of clients nowadays, they're looking for a combination. It depends on which field of course, but a lot of clients nowadays, they're looking for a combination of a content creator or a photographer videographer, and probably even an influencer.

So, if this is a career prof, somebody is looking for, then probably should look how to grow their platform. The social media platform. There are definitely a lot of ways nowadays which are different from the ways they were a little bit like, five or, even like three years ago. But at the same time, if you're looking at it as a business, you know, if you're looking at your photography and at your basically not even photography, we're talking content creation here with social media.

So, yeah, you, have to play by the rules of the market probably, and try to grow. this can be harder or easier for some depends  on the pictures you're doing depends on the visual content you're producing. Unfortunately, this kind of rules of social media, they can totally change your style or they can influence your self esteem a lot.

That's for sure. So for younger people, there are definitely a lot of people nowadays who are trying to go by the rules. And they're trying to upload the pictures, which are more popular, which will gain them more like small following. And this of course may change the way you see photography at all, because a lot of women, for example, posting their own pictures, where they look attractive and sexy as much more profitable you know, on the longer run than posting their. Just because you know, sex sells and we're still living in that age where your looks are getting you more than your work.

Not particularly everyone, but this is part of the game and a lot of photographers, Daniel themselves. they told me that they felt this pressure because anytime they would post a picture of themselves, it would perform better than They pictures of landscapes they're doing. And of course, if you want to have that kind of growth on social media, you would actually consider changing a little bit, the pictures you're posting and you will post more pictures of yourself. And yeah, that's a little bit like a circle where you have to Decide whether you want to do it your way, or you want to kind of, yeah. Maybe find a compromise or with your own with yourself. Yeah. 

Yulia: [00:17:12] And I,  I think, you know, everything that you've described right now, it's I've seen that. It's very prevalent. That pressure particularly.  even several years ago and you, and I probably share this sort of agony over, over the certain aesthetic of the Instagram world, right.

Whereas this woman and the pretty flowing dress standing in front of some nice view, that flooded the platform right. Several years ago. and I feel like it's not as prevalent anymore. And I do feel like things are changing on the platform. Would you, would you say so, like why do you see things changing and where do you see this platform?

heading.

Alina: [00:17:56] Well, the thing there's still a certain algorithm. So the pictures you'll see probably more depend on the pictures which you look for and the

people you follow. 

Yulia: [00:18:07] basically you're saying that I stopped looking for those women in a pretty dress pictures, but they still exist.

Alina: [00:18:13] Yeah, of course, because those kinds of figures, those are the biggest influencers. And if you go for it, there's a lot of people whom I know. Who are not from the photography world. And when they hear Instagram, the first thing they think is like this people with like really heavily filtered.  they're different tendencies of course, happening now.

 Now, for example, a lot of influencers, they go away from this idea of perfected beauty, but at the same time they exploited this body positivity movement. So it's still the same beautiful women, but they will like, you know, take an. Unfortunate or like take an bad angle picture of themselves. And then they, they would pause that, oh, look at this.

I also am not as pretty, it's just all filters and don't believe the internet, but at the same time, it's still the same beautiful women who are dominating the game. So, unfortunately I don't, it's not going to go anywhere, like on a longer run. There will be always still people who are. famous for being famous or there will be always people who are valuing others for their looks and not for the work they're doing. But at the same time, I think there will be also more and more people and women who are doing something  valuable of value and they encourage  others to do the same.

So that was my goal throughout the years. I didn't really want to compromise much. I mean, I still probably compromised here and there, but I think   there are still ways of doing your own thing and other people appreciating it.

 Yulia: [00:19:43] Yeah. And I think in one of the interviews that you had, you mentioned that the times when women were only used as, as muses are over, we are the artists now, which I just love that that statement so much. So tell me more about that. that thinking, but you sort of touched on it already. but how do you see, and do you see more and more women coming into this field and becoming the artist versus the muses?

Alina: [00:20:12]   well, this is a serious topic to talk about. And I think it's a very important one. And as I've already said that There is definitely an improvement. not only an Instagram or social media, there's definitely an improvement the world.

Nowadays, in order to afford women to get into a gallery or museum, she doesn't have to be naked to paraphrase. They, the famous statement from the sixties, you know, there's a lot of women artists who are getting into galleries and museums these days, not only as, they subject of some male gaze fixture, but actually as graters.

talented painters and photographers and artists. So that is definitely happening. And I think it will happen more and more. I think that there will be always a balance of those who prefer to be valued for their work and the others who probably would still go the easier way of exploiting their looks.

But I think this has always happened and this will happen probably for years and years to come.

But I still believe that there is now like a huge wave of young women who are really just doing what they want. And they don't really feel the pressure of being judged by their looks, but they rather do what they want to do.

And, they just want to be appreciated for their work. Not for that.

 Yulia: [00:21:34] Yeah. And it's so interesting for me in this whole, you know, generation of women who are younger than me, because I've noticed this about myself, that as I'm getting older, actually, I. Start caring less and less about what other people think about my looks or the way I present myself. Right. I sort of grow into myself.

I had this conversation actually with Marianna who is a friend of yours. I know. And who's part of the bell collective as well, which we're going to get into in a second. We had this conversation on the show recently. I can't wait to see who I am when I'm like 50 years old, like who I'm going to grow into when I'm 50, you know, for me, it's like the older I get, the more comfortable I become and more.

yeah, I, I really don't care about how, you know, how the world sees me. What's important to me is the work that I do and what I want to say and doing the world. And I feel like, like you said, this younger generation, they, they are a different breed. they're already there.

They didn't have to do that essentially. And so that spot sort of, they are already there. so it's, it's really exciting to see. You know, the things that they will do when they're our age, for example, and older as well. Do you feel like that too? Alina: [00:22:48] I don't know. I have a feeling that I always had a very, like they're very neutral attitude towards my attractiveness and how people see me as a woman. Probably also the way I was raised, when I was little people never, or my parents, which is the important part, they never really exaggerated the importance of my appearance or beauty.

And they always exaggerated the importance of education of my talents. You know, it was always about me being smarter, being like really. pursuing my goals, being like the best, which is also an also not very, very positive because you are like, then, you know, set your expectations way too high.

Doesn't matter whether it's the appearance or the intellectual abilities, but, you know, I, I never felt the pressure. And I think, especially from this side of my father, the attitude or like the way fathers perceived their daughters and the way they value it, And what they value their daughters for is really very important in the building up of the character and you know, your, your actually dreams and aspirations and your values.

So in my case, that was not really that thing where I really valued or felt any pressure to be pretty.

And  I don't want to be a woman who says that I don't care about my appearance at all, because that would be a lie. We still are visual people, especially as photographers.

We're still look at others and we appreciate, sometimes we can appreciate physical beauty, just like everyone else. This will be alive.   you, you do notice if people, people phases are harmonious with build. If there's some symmetry in them, if you're attracted to them after all.

Yulia: [00:24:24] Yeah, I think the difference is that we just don't place our worth our sense of worth on that. Right. That's I think that this thing is.

Alina: [00:24:32] Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think this is what the women of our generation and also the generations to come. They're really winning, especially those who are probably not lucky to be like this kind of conventionally. Beautiful. I think this is very important because back in the day, the only successful women who were there.

I mean, not all of them, of course, but a lot of them, they build their success, even professional success, just because they were attractive to some males in the higher positions. And, you know, they had to do it because, you know, they, they had to work with what they had. And if you have an opportunity because you were like more attractive, you just had to grab it.

But of course, nowadays this is going away because there's so many more women in there. higher positions and there's not this pressure. We all know that sexual harassment is not the way to go. And after, especially the me too movement.  there's definitely a huge shift in this appreciation of women professionals.

And like, you know, those guys who used to be assholes, even if they are probably still assholes on the inside, they would never do it. 

Yulia: [00:25:37] They, would be more careful now. 

Alina: [00:25:38] Yeah, I mean, there, there were problems. Some people would say assholes, I cannot, we cannot change that. Even if we try, but at least those kinds of challenges, which our mothers and grandmothers faced less and less women face them now.

And this is a huge, huge win. And we have to also celebrate that because I think a lot of women nowadays, they forget What a huge steps of step we did just in like few years, just in 10, 20 years, because the people always saying about how unfair it is and like how there still is such a huge gender gap, but we always compare with some idea, which is probably reachable, but not in our lifetime, but we also can compare it to like our grandmothers or our great grandmothers.

And see how far are We actually came.

Yulia: [00:26:27] Oh, Darlene. I love that so much. and two thoughts that come up for, from what you just said, one, this is actually very similar to what I also talk about in our genius women community about comparing yourself because when you compare yourself to some ideal that you're striving.

Toward you see this huge gap that is still there in between you and that ideal, but when you compare yourself to where you were a year ago, five years ago, 10 years ago, you see this amazing progress that you've made. so that, that's very similar to what you're saying right. With, this assessment and the other point it's so funny because literally last night I was listening to another podcast.

It was an interview with Rita Moreno who isa really accomplishedactor here in the U S she came from Puerto Rico when she was young and she for most of the 20th century, she was this amazing actress. She won a lot of awards and all of that. she's 89 now, I think she's turning 90 this year.

And it was an interview with her and she. Telling the story in that interview, just to illustrate the point that we were just talking about that her producer, I think it was in the fifties or sixties. He I think it was her producer. I'm not exactly sure. remember exactly, but he sexually assaulted her  she stayed with him and she continued with him because she thought, that he was the only one who was gonna get her, the jobs that she needed or whatever,   and then when I think about it, like my skin crawls, you know, imagine you have to stay with this person who assaulted you because you see no other option to continue this career that you're in, which is to illustrate that point, that how far we've come from that.

Right.

Alina: [00:28:11] Well, I think the thing is that there are still a lot of cases like this nowadays as well. I think that just back then, women, sometimes they didn't even think, I mean, of course they felt maybe uncomfortable with this, but maybe The whole society that they basically took it for granted.

They didn't think that, you know, if a producer sleeps with a beautiful actress or, you know, that, that is something wrong, they're there. They just see it as an exchange off as a bargain, you know, she's, she's getting the fame. He is getting a young actress in his bat. So, uh, nowadays I think there are still people who are.

Exploiting this or are, some women nowadays, they would probably even do this to promote their career. And I wouldn't even blame them because we're still living in this kind of a. phase where, you know, we as women, we just got our rights. So recently that a lot of us and a lot of us that we still don't know where we stand on this.

We still don't have all the powers. So, whatever we have to do to basically succeed sometimes for some it's like exploiting your beauty for a career choice, because that's probably the only option. As you see it at that moment, and you can't really judge people for doing this because this is the yeah.

The pattern key, the thousands of years of grooming women into, into thinking that their only value is their good looks, education family. I mean, we cannot really judge people for doing this because I mean, generally we are the product of our environment and some people don't. Such a liberal and cool environment.

And they just do whatever they think is a maybe not really. Right. But 

Yulia: [00:30:01] Whatever they need to do

to survive. Yeah. 

Alina: [00:30:04] so in this case, I'm rarely, I'm trying not to be judgmental of anyone  for doing the things. like, if I don't do it this way, it doesn't mean that I have the right to judge because probably I haven't never been in a position.

Which would make me make a different kind of decision, you

Yulia: [00:30:23] Yeah. I think empathy right. Is what you're talking about. It's being able to put yourself in. Or, or imagine how it would be in another person's shoes. And that's where that's no judgment additive comes from. On this path even in our world, let's say it's still very male dominated.

Although like we just discussed a lot, a lot of progress has been made. Who are the women that have inspired you on this path, particularly as you were sort of finding your voice, starting out. In the travel photography industry, who were some of those women who inspired you and how did they impact you?

Alina: [00:31:02] I really love all those stories from, from the early ages of female travelers and adventure. And photographers. I mean, I was always fascinated by work. So, Diane Airbus, or, I mean, when I started at collective, I looked into like FEMA adventures and I discovered like Gertrude bow.

And this is why I actually called the bell collective bell collective after Gertrude bell. I love discovering. new names  in different parts of arts and  yeah, travel and basically human history. I'm just trying to like really figure out like a certain. personality, which would really, really impress me. But you know, just one of the reasons the ones was Vivian Meyer. because I, for example, for me, this is something absolutely. Unbelievable that somebody who would be so good in the visual arts never had really aspirations of becoming famous, which is basically like a nonsense and pet paradox for somebody who is working in the visual fields.

Because I have a feeling as a photographer, or actually as a writer, anyone who is willing to do something, you're usually doing it for the public. I mean, if it, even if you have this grave site in, you. I would lie if I say like, I would be okay with people, never seeing my work,

you know, I want to people to see it and appreciate it and be inspired by it.

So somebody like Vivian Meyer, who really just two grows and hundreds and thousands of rolls of films without really even developing them or printing them or not really in publishing them, that just shows me   Some kind of humbleness I've never had,

which is also a thing to to think about.

Yeah.

Yulia: [00:32:52] Yeah, that's a really interesting discussion, right? It's like, Does the art exist for the artist or for the public and can the art, even me without the public see it. which is sort of a bit of what you're talking about here  and I believe actually that story about women Meyer. I actually, you might've posted about it on Instagram or something, because I think that's where I found out about that story too.

And I was struck by it as well. And I also started thinking about that, right then that she was doing, she was capturing all these images for years and years and years, without any recognition and without even so far as you know, even developing her films in some cases, which is just a whole other level that I can't even imagine like you that's very meta, I would say.

Alina: [00:33:42] I mean, this is something to, to learn from as well. She also lived in the era. I think she tried to have some context, maybe She just had a bad experience because I remember there was in, in the documentary about her, they told that that she tried to.

Something published or exhibited, but it didn't really happen. And after that, she just never tried again or something, but so we can only assume that she never really did anything, but just seeing how much of her work was never developed you, you can assume that, yeah, that was probably one of the most genius, like documentary and sweet photographers of the 20th century.

And we only like really discovered her after she died.

Yulia: [00:34:22] Yeah. And the documentary that you're referring to about Harris called finding Vivian Meyer, I believe

Alina: [00:34:28] Yeah. I look at it because I have a poster from it at home because this is a, I've seen it when I was living in New York seven years ago. And I went  to a movie theater to see it. And it was, I was really, really impressed.

Yulia: [00:34:40] actually, if you talk, if you talk about the story in this light, that you know, that she tried to be published, you know, it sort of didn't work. What strikes me then is that she didn't stop producing her art. She didn't say, well, you know, that's it, you know, she continued  

Alina: [00:34:57] I think I remember in the documentary film, they sent, somebody talked about her and there was like, yeah, she was doing this pictures. Not because she wanted to publish them just because she couldn't not do it. Like, this is the only way saw the world. She wanted to take this picture.

She wanted to. To like push the button and she wanted to be there to experience it. And this is something the same for me. Like, I take so many pictures with my phone, which I never really published or put an Instagram or anywhere just because when I see something, I want that moment to be captured for myself. some people are like, don't take a picture, keep it in your, in your memory. But I mean, I'm not like that. If I see something, I immediately frame it in my head. I see the beautiful light and I almost have this physical urge to take a picture. So this is probably something for those too.

Like if you, if you want to know, if you were passionate about something, then think about those kinds of mom moments. Because for me, this is obviously. This is obviously a sign of photography being my, one of my biggest passions. And probably also sometimes at the moments where I'm a little bit frustrated with myself.

This is also a sign that I, I chose the right path for myself.

Yulia: [00:36:13] I love how you put it. And it also resonates for me on the bigger level and the bigger scale when I think about this path that I'm on, you know, as a, as a travel photographer, as a travel writer, I feel like there's nothing else that I'd rather be doing. I have this urge to do it.

that also helps me in staying in this path, because again, it's not the easiest path in the world, but when you feel like I must do it because I have this urge then that's how you know. So tell us more about the bell collective, you mentioned you named it after Gertrude bell, who was this female Explorer.

what was your impetus for creating this Belle collective?

Alina: [00:36:54] Well, after being a few years on Instagram and after getting my first influencer jobs, I started noticing that problem. the photography I do is something that, not that many other, like, I don't really see me and women, like me being really represented and supported and yeah, like being represented on social media.

I've seen, like, if you will Google, female creators or female travel bloggers, or travel. Photographers, you would usually see the classical interpretation of a fake female news in a beautiful dress and model, beautiful model posing for somebody else's gaze. back at the time. Also, I was invited as a travel photographer or influencer you name it.

I don't know, really as a clients to go to several countries. and I very often I was a part of an old male team.  first I thought, well, you know, I didn't notice any kind of I mean, I thought it was okay. It was normal. But then, you know, after a while I've noticed  the way if there will be a guy on my team, more few guys than other people would ask them about the technical specification of a certain camera, or they would ask them to explain how to do a shot.

 also the guys themselves that would have this, like, you know, the bond and they would not appreciate you as a part of the group, even, you know, if you were the only female, because there's always, there's a little bit of that, where are the guys? And here's like this one chick and we either feel attracted to her or we just ignore.

 I mean, it's not always like that, of course, but I still think that this. gender divided Maybe like this a little bit stereotypical behavior, it's still prevails. quite often, especially when the groups or the companies, or like, you know, the workspace, if it's gender. You'll always have this kind of tendencies for, I don't know, people grouping around being like the same gender or the same, you know? so, yeah, that's long explanation, but I kind of felt like I was under present presented on social media. So, and I felt like women altogether who are like me professional photographers and adventures that there were like under presented.

So I decided to start with bulk collective and basically, yeah. Have this develop this community or collective, not really like a closed collective, but an open community of women on Instagram who are interested in adventures and travel. And they're not this One stereotype of a female traveler, who is like just a beautiful woman in a beautiful dress in front of a beautiful building, but they all see traveling from different perspective, different angles.

Some of them see it as a minimalistic, show it through their photography in total different ways. all of them travel and discover the world. But at the same time, they all have totally different styles. And there's no one like female. Which were often taught there is. And I honestly believe that there are so many female gazes and definitely there are topics where women are probably more they're more experts in just because there is and historical, biological inclination to understanding some things better.

I don't know, like childbirth or feel uncomfortable about certain topics more just because they're having personal experiences. But it's more about, we're talking here more about like documentary photography, but I talked myself into some forest of thoughts, which I cannot get easily out of.

Yulia: [00:40:29] no worries. And for our listeners Allina shared with me before the podcast that she was just on the photo shoot yesterday. Right? So, it's, it's understandable. No worries. Something So, what are your goals when the Belk Alexa sort of what's, what's the vision? What are you trying to build?

or what are you working towards women?

Alina: [00:40:47] I mean, I was going with the flow for quite a while. I mean we published a really beautiful book with one of the biggest Germans. publishing houses do Hmong bell collective it's with 14 female photographers it is about traveling, but it's mostly from totally different perspectives.

Affording individual talented photographers who happen to be female.  nowadays I'm really thinking off going a little bit further with it. Also starting like a creative production female production here in Berlin.  do more work and support more women and also spread the word a world and also gives us opportunities  to female creators to actually get the recognition and the jobs that they deserve because in Germany, as well as in the us and everywhere in the world.

Despite women going into art schools more and more. And despite most of the art school and photography schools graduate being women in, when it comes to commercial side women are still a very hugely under presented and they're not doing enough commercial work to actually become established. in this field and I think this has to change. So it's not only about some kind of creative representation. It's about the business power, which a lot of women just don't have despite being really, really tough.

Yulia: [00:42:07] Yeah,  I love how you put it and as you were talking about it and uh, I was thinking that finally, the question that I've asked you, what are your goals with this? It's such a masculine question to ask. Everything has to be about goals. Everything has to be about, you know, what are you trying to do with it?

And the reason why I'm thinking that is that we just recently had our genius women retreat and one of our guest speakers was talking about how there are just the sort of masculine way to look at the world and in a feminine way. And in the masculine way, it's all about conquest, competition goals achieving, and in the feminine way, it's more about, you know, feeling.

feeling something living through something. So, anyhow, this was just sort of a side note that as I'm asking my question, you know, what are your goals with the bell collective I'm thinking? Well, that's a very masculine question to ask.  

Alina: [00:43:03] I think , uh, goals is something which , uh, human beings can easily understand and perceive like our brains are made for some short, short time and time growth goals. it's just. I think you're right that maybe some set testosterone induced goals are more about power and about being a number one and about like conquering and.

This is something, you know, men learn,  since they're like young children that they always have to be the best. And it's also a negative impact of patriarchy that a lot of boys who just want to enjoy their life and probably are not that career ambitious, they are also struggling because our society, expects them to, to want to achieve more. with women it's like, sometimes it's even,  It's appreciated when a woman has some kind of aspirations and ambitions, but it's not expected of her on such a, on such a level. This is why when she achieved something everybody's like pleasantly surprised while from a guy it's more like it's expected.

So if he is not like, if he's willing just to chill and maybe just work some side jobs, but meanwhile just chill in his hammock and smoke weed most of the time and just enjoying his life.

That is like, yeah, he's a failure it's thrown upon. And by the people who are actually working all their life or their lives really hard getting a heart attack at 50, probably never seeing their children.

And at the same time, they are seen as accomplished people while the others were actually having a happy life with having a little bit less money, a little bit, less power they're seeing as failures and losers, even though they probably lived objectively and more accomplished and happy.

Yulia: [00:44:43] Yes. I signed my name on there. Everything you just said. it's such an irony  that's how we view it. But, you know, conversations like this are also happening more and more. Now that I feel like that's more people are waking up to. So that irony, so, so that's good. Um,   if somebody wants to you know, get involved with what you have going on with the bell collective, how can they do that?

Alina: [00:45:08] 

I'm, I'm really appreciating people. just writing to hello@bellcollective.com. And if they want to write for our blog  I mean, they can spread the word about Belle collective using our hashtag   we, we try to support as many women by. Publishing their pictures on our Instagram site.

I'm looking forward to, Building up the community more in the future when I have also a little bit more time.

 right now, like I'm I'm like in the building phase of the production company as well. So, but at the same time, I'm looking forward to continue building this kind of A community around Belle collective.

So if somebody is willing to ride for us or they want their pictures to be published on our page, or they have like maybe some interesting story to share they can write a hello at Belco. I can just come and we'll do that.

Yulia: [00:46:03] Perfect. That's wonderful.  So lots of cool projects and lots of interesting things that you're working on. Alina, what are you most excited about? right now in your life.

Alina: [00:46:17] Honestly, I, I have a feeling that despite we were just talking about how. You know, like you don't have to be goal-oriented. I think it's a lot of stress for me to actually not have goals. And this is why right now I'm writing a business plan and I'm working on something which is out of my box, you know, out of my Comfort zone. And this is something new for me. And at the same time, it's like, it gives me anxiety, but it also excites me because it's not purely about photography anymore. It's about basically some kind of creative, but also business project. It really excites me. But at the same time, it's scary at the same time, I realize that, you know, I can do it. I think this is also this kind of fear. It's also inspirational because whenever you have like a little victory, you can just totally understand that, you know, you can, you can totally do it and then everyone can do it.

yeah. I also like have a little thing to say that I'm very often inspired, not by. Victories and not by stories of success, but by the stories of failures, just because I understand that people try and they fail. And that is okay, because I think we're really bombarded by all this stories of success and nowadays, and a lot of people like, they just really have anxiety about it because they feel that they themselves, because they didn't accomplish anything that it means that, you know, they're not worth it.

But at the same time when they hear stories of failures and people not stopping after failing ones. that's what generally inspires me more because I realized that, you know, there are other people like me, not everybody is immediately an expert. That it's okay to fail that it's okay. Not to be good at something in the beginning that if you failed once doesn't mean that you should stop and never touch it ever again.

And I think for women, especially, this could be a really good source of self confidence and inspiration because we're learning that women are very often judged twice as, or three times as hard. In comparison to guys or boys or men. And I think as women, we should really stop judging ourselves so hard.

So if we fail, like we just stand up and do it again, or do something else with the same confidence instead of judging ourselves and thinking that we're not worthy.

Yulia: [00:48:48] Oh, yes. I love that. couldn't have said it better myself because. This is what I talk about a lot too, that, you know, we have to normalize failure, right? Failure is amazing, and it's teaches us so many things. even if you fail 10 times on doing something, go again and try the 11th time.

You know, oftentimes it takes us so much more time and effort to build something than we ever realized. And that's also because what we see is those fast success stories.  and in reality, it all happens much slower, you know, flowers, bloom much slower, but they 

do 

bloom. 

Alina: [00:49:27] I know that women generally, if this I've learned it in social psychology class, that women are much more, they will never start something when they're not like almost 90% sure that they can do it.

Well men very often, especially if it comes to like application for a job that like most men, they will apply for a job where they only fit 20% of the requirements while with women it's like 90 or 95%.

And very often we really like stop ourselves from doing or applying something or doing some projects because we think we're not good enough for it, or we don't have enough knowledge about it. And then other people, they just try it and then they succeed. And then, you know,  just because they tried not because they're better at it  And I think trying is always a really good start. having also that kind of confidence, sometimes it can be a little bit overconfidence, but it's better than actually under estimating yourself because underestimating yourself. Well, it never really helped anyone, especially not the women.

Yulia: [00:50:29] Yes. Oh, I love that Alina. Yes, yes. To all of it, for sure. I want to close today's conversation. And I feel like we can talk more about the subject cause it's like, we all nearly just scratched the surface of it. But what I would like to close with this question, and it's a big one, but how would you start thinking about what does it mean to be a woman who is stepping into her brilliance?

 Alina: [00:50:59] honestly, I don't know. I don't know.  I think any kind of human being, I I'm, I'm not trying to, to really put it into genders or I honestly don't know. I can only have some kind 

of personal experience I don't know what it is to be other women, women just like, I don't know how it is to be another person generally.

So it would be hard for me to answer this. I just think that everybody has to go their own way. They have to be confident, no matter what gender, no matter what. You know, they have to be also loyal and compassionate and empathic. And I think a little bit of self, a little bit of egoism is okay, but too much of it can wing not only your life, but also the lives of others. So I think you also have to really appreciate others' feelings and take care of others feelings. Not only think about yourself. 

Yulia: [00:52:01] I think what you said, really what you're showcased really well. Alina is complexity of being a human being though.

Alina: [00:52:09] Yeah, I think so. I mean, honestly, I I'm probably that the one lucky woman whose gender is coinciding with her sex. So for me being woman only means that,  the only way I know I'm a woman is that 

Yulia: [00:52:24] Okay. 

Alina: [00:52:24] menstruating. Every month for now. And you know, I can probably have children and in my womb, but that's probably it.

So the biological part of it, but everything else, I mean, I feel like a human being, I really don't have the feeling a womanhood, which I would really like separate from my personality in general. So the world, the way that the world sees a woman and me, rather than a human being, sometimes that is a different question,

but I myself want to be seen as a person, first of all, and not as a particular gender or sex. 

Yulia: [00:53:04] That's a good one. That's a good one to close with. Today's very robust conversation then went into all kinds of subjects. I appreciate your, time today, Alina. And thank you so much for coming.

Alina: [00:53:20] Thank you, Julia, for inviting me. I mean, it was definitely thought provoking and. I just went with the flow and just talked what I feel like. So I hope I didn't offend anyone with my thoughts and I really hope that probably somebody even got inspired a little bit.

Yulia: [00:53:40] I'm sure that they will be. I'm sure they will be Elena. Thank you so much.

Alina: [00:53:44] Thank you. Bye bye. Thank you so much for sharing an hour of your day with us today. I hope you enjoy the conversation we had with Elena. And if so, please consider leaving us a review so that more or less the centers could find our show. I really can't stress how important it is for us to get reviews of our podcasts.

It really helps us to get in front. More people who might enjoy our show. So if you've been inspired by something you heard today or in any other episodes of our show, please consider leaving us your review. That is one of the best ways you can support our podcast. Thanks again. And I'll see you next week for a conversation with travel photographer, writer and solo female backpacker, Alex, Raynaud's AKA lost with purpose on Instagram.