S4 E38: A Work In Progress with journalist Sarah Munir

Get the show’s transcript

“SM: As you grow older and smarter you realize that physical locations are just an external marker, everything that you need to be is within you. Just because you're in one part of the world or you’re moving from developed and developing, or a different country, your reality externally might change, but like the skill sets that you have, they travel with you. If you're a builder, you will build something, regardless of where you are. If you're an artist, you will find inspiration, regardless of where you are. We tie our work very often to where we are, what opportunities are around us, who we are surrounded by. Whereas what we really need to do is look inwards and see everything that I need is within me.”

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:43] YD: Welcome to the Genius Womxn podcast. I’m your host, Yulia Denisyuk, an award-winning travel photographer and writer with work in some incredible publications like National Geographic, AFAR magazine and more. This year, you’ll see my name in places like Condé Nast Traveler. I am on a mission to help other women who want to grow their travel storytelling careers, go after their dreams while feeling supported, worthy and bold. If you’re ready to ditch your fear and doubts to the side, step into your brilliance, and take action on your dreams, you’re in the right place. Let’s go. 

Before we get started, I want to let you know that today’s episode is brought to you by our Circle membership. The Circle is our membership for women and their supporters who want to get their travel stories published. We have weekly check-ins, monthly idea brainstorm sessions, curated opportunities to pursue in the travel media space, pitch reviews where I give you feedback on your pitches and much, much more. Enrollment in the Circle is open right now, and you can join us as a monthly or an annual member. If you’ve been on the fence about joining us, now is the time because in September, we’re going to close enrollment as we prepare for our one-year anniversary. So, if you’ve been thinking about this, now is the time. Visit geniuswomxn.com/circle to get started.

Sarah Munir is a digital journalist with over a decade of experience in different mediums including print, broadcast and digital. She has been published in places like VICE, Quartz and Al Jazeera, and worked at tech giants, Facebook and Twitter. But in today's conversation, we barely talk about media and accomplishments. Instead, we delve into the topics that matter; coming into your own, strong women that inspire us, the realizations and reprioritization we've had during the pandemic, how our relationship with our bodies impacts our other spheres in our lives, what home is, living between Karachi in New York, and sex. Yes, sex. 

Thank you, Sarah for being our first guest who has finally brought the subject into our podcast. Sarah is a dear friend and every time we get together, we have conversations that feel thought provoking, and life affirming at once. If you're feeling unsure, doubtful, like you're not making as much progress as you'd want, or simply looking for a reinvigorating reminder of how brilliant women really are, then this episode is for you. Let's get into it.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:03:37] YD: Awesome, awesome, Sarah, I am so, so happy to have a chat with you, just like we used to have in New York in some fancy restaurant or a coffee shop. Now, we're doing this this way. But I'm very, very excited to welcome you to the podcast.

[00:03:51] SM: Likewise, I'm very excited to, and for some reason, not nervous, which is very unlike me, probably because we have so much to catch upon. I think we have a lot to talk about and I've heard past episodes and I really like what you're trying to do with this space, like the audience that you're trying to create and more than that, the messaging that we usually don't see in mainstream outlets or shows or books, and I think that kind of safe space where you're vulnerable, where you're honest, where you're sharing, I think those are so important right now. So, thank you for doing this.

[00:04:24] YD: Thank you. Thank you, Sarah, what an amazing way to start this conversation. So, for our listeners who don't know, Sarah and I are really good friends. Every time I come to New York, I try to see her. I remember, probably one of the very first times that you and I met through our dear mutual friend, Aisha, I remember I was still in corporate and I remember that conversation very clearly right now. It was in Dumbo in Brooklyn. I remember sitting there and complaining to you or telling you how I just hate my corporate job. I really wanted to move away or quit it. I don't remember exactly what we talked about. But I remember the feeling, that feeling of, “Oh, I need to change, I need to do something different.”

[00:05:11] SM: Yeah, I think we've all been there, I just think it's very special to have people in your life where you're able to express these doubts to, because I just think we're all always trying to portray this perfect image of ourselves where we have everything under control, we have successful relationships and these perfect jobs. In reality, all of us are so far from that point. If you are that one person where somebody else can be honest, and be like, “Oh, I don't think this stuff is working out for me.” And you can just create that space to listen to them, and maybe enable them to take the actions that they need to do but are like struggling with, I just think that's probably the most beautiful form of friendship for me.

[00:05:51] YD: Yes, so well said, Sarah. What you said earlier about us being vulnerable, and really speaking honestly and openly about all the different doubts and fears and concerns that plague us, really, I just find it so liberating. Because I find that every time I speak about that, I see that everyone around me has exactly the same things, we don't talk about them. So, it becomes such a heavy load to carry when you feel like everyone else is doing so fine, and you're the only one struggling. But that's not the case.

[00:06:28] SM: Yep, you have all these Instagram presences and these LinkedIn updates. But I think it's very important to remember that there are real stories of struggle behind it and that context is very important. Somebody might be here, but there's years of questioning and inspection and like work that got them there. Rather than focusing on where people end up, I think we need to speak more about how they got there. Because I think that's where the story is, that’s where the journey is. We just have to be more confident about sharing those things.

Because I think one of my biggest learnings in the past couple of years has been that everything in life is a work in progress. At no point are you the ultimate version of what you want to be or, you know, there is no nirvana, you're constantly evolving, you're constantly changing. And being okay with that is a big part of growth, that, “I'm here right now, I might not have all the answers, because I'm a work in progress, but I'll figure it out, I'll move to the next step. That might be completely different, but I'll figure it out then.”

But we don't look at things like that. We set all these targets for ourselves and I think that begins at a very young age from like, when we're in school we are taught to think of where we'll be, who we want to be, what kind of jobs we want, what kind of money we want to be making. While I do think that kind of direction is valuable, I think what people really need to focus on is the fluidity that we deprive ourselves of, that I might want this today, but it's okay for me to sit down three years down the line, and reinspect if this stuff is even making me happy, if the skill set that I've acquired in the past couple of years makes me a better fit for something else. But because I think most people, and that includes me, have such singular focuses and ideas and dreams about who we wanted to be as a kid, and then we just really stick to it dogmatically when it's not serving us at times. In fact, it's holding us back because you might put yourself in a box, but you're capable of so much more which we can see in your experience, right?

It's not that you were unsuccessful and left something, you were very successful. But was it really, truly making you happy? And even if it's making you happy, maybe there's more that you want to do, right? We all have that just one life, and if the pandemic has taught us anything, it's that, capitalize on it now. You don't know how off-limits things might get due to factors that are completely beyond your control.

I think just that sitting and thinking, “I'll do this when I'm 40, I'll do this and I'm 45,” why? If this makes you happy right now, do it right now. Make that change. I think another thing that we need to talk about is growth, how that's led to be something that's very productive, that's something that you should be aspiring towards. But growth is fucking uncomfortable. We don't talk about that. It gets so uncomfortable, it's almost physical at points, right? Like you feel the stress, you feel all of it in your bones, and you need to go through it to come out on the other side. I'm not saying kill yourself, but like, sit with yourself, understand why you're feeling this way. Examine past patterns, see how you reacted in certain situations. All of that kind of leads you to where your answer is.

[00:09:40] YD: Yeah. Oh, gosh. So, beautiful. Everything that you just said. What's interesting to me, now, in this new role of a podcast host where I have these conversations with different women, what's amazing to me every time is that the threads are showing up again and again, the same threads. I even have goosebumps when I realize that, because what you just said too, about putting yourself into boxes, we had another amazing guest on the show last season Lola Akinmade Åkerström, and that's what she talked about. She talked about how we put ourselves into boxes and society puts us into boxes and how it's uncomfortable also to get out of those, but we absolutely have to.

I want to say something about what you said about growth, because I think the way you're defining growth is also different from the growth in a very typical sense, because I have this feeling that a lot of times the pressure that we feel is from the fact that we always need to like get more, grow more. The growth trajectory always has to go up infinitely, which is unsustainable for us as humans, but that's –

[00:10:49] SM: It's also very quantitative the way we look at it, like, what is growth? I move into a bigger house, I get a bigger paycheck and that is growth. I'm not going to undermine the importance of those things, financial independence, being able to afford the life that you want for yourself, those things are critical. What is it coming at the expense of? I think a little bit of a priority check is also important. There could be a year when being financially liquid and being able to travel, you prioritize that. But then, take a step back and next year, work on yourself and be like, “Okay, I'll make a little bit less money. I'll work on lesser projects, but I'll maybe acquire a different skill set, or I'll maybe put myself in a different setting, or I'll learn something, I'll take a course.”

We don't do that, because we're just racing against time and like trying to prove a point to ourselves and trying to prove a point to others. What I think the pandemic should have taught us, there's no medals, right? You just gotta stay alive. You just gotta stay happy. That's really what it came down to. You gotta take care of yourself. Another thing that I think is very, very important is to sit in gratitude, like for the bodies that were born in, the bodies that have kept us alive during this time. Those things aren't traditionally counted as growth. But in my opinion, that is. If you're functional, if you're happy, if you're taking care of others, if you're taking care of yourself, that's remarkable growth, and people don't have it. A lot of people don't have it.

[00:12:15] YD: Yeah. We definitely don't define growth and success in those ways. And that's one of the things that I also want to do with this podcast and these conversations is, I often talk about the fact that success in the most traditional sense, it's absolutely not what it's made out to be, it’s absolutely not. Who says how – do you have to be on the cover of, I don't know, Vogue magazine? Do you have to be published in all the top newspapers? Let's sort of bring it back to the media world. Do you have to make $200,000 a year to be successful in this space?

I define success as, I wake up every morning, and I'm so excited to get my day started. I have this interview with Sarah coming up, and I'm like, “This is my life. I love what I do every day.” That's my version of success. I don't have to be published in the New York Times travel section for me to feel successful. But we do, we have these external markers. That's how we sort of judge, as a society, if you're successful or not. We have these markers. I think we just need to keep talking more openly about the fact that we all need to define success in our own way, and that's going to take out so much of that pressure that we're talking about too.

[00:13:41] SM: Right. And have some kind of structure. I'm not saying just operate with complete free will and not have any direction with what you're doing. But leave room for fluidity in those structures. If you've made a yearlong plan, maybe something new might come up and be open to those things, because I firmly believe that the universe has a way of showing you where you need to go. Whether you take that path or not, that's up to you. I don't think you're able to see it until you have that approach where you're looking for like new opportunities, where you're looking for signs of change, where you're embracing them, trying them out, because I think the fear of failure really holds us back and failure has a lot to teach.

I think one of the most undervalued learnings is how failing forward is so important in your career. And if you're not failing forward, you're probably not putting yourself out there in the way that you should be. Because there's so much to learn there, right? So much in terms of, “I approach situations like this, maybe I need to do this differently. Or maybe I'm not good in a leadership position, so I need to work on these skills.” There's a lot of active work that goes into all of these changes. You won't just magically wake up in a situation and be good at it. People who are successful actually really work at it.

In fact, I’ve been reading this study where it said that people who are naturally charming, they actually rehearse that. They put in a lot of work into how they will conduct themselves, what the conversation is going to look like. So, if something that apparently seems so basic is not a God given talent, but people actually nurture that skill, then imagine the kind of training that you have to go through to be able to do certain things. I think what usually happens is we get so paralyzed in the fear stage that we don't move forward to the next one, where you sit and evaluate and be like, “Okay, so this is what I want to do. These are the tools that I need. These are the skills that I need. This is what I have. This is what I don't have. So, who can I go to? Who can help me with this? Or what resources can I use, where I can learn this?” Because we're just so stuck in that initial stage where we're holding ourselves backward, constantly making an inventory list of the things that we don't have, and not focusing on what we do have. 

Really, I think at the end of the day, if you combine passion, with dedication, passion, with discipline, there is literally nothing that you can’t do. Because passion brings the heart that you need to keep going, and discipline brings the skills that you need to be successful. I think we really need to sit with ourselves and be like, “So, what are the things that make me happy? What are the things that make me money? What are the things that I'm good at?” And then try and find an intersection between those things. Or alternatively, you could do one thing to make money, and then one thing to make you happy, depending on what your priorities look like. But I do think that these are very basic human needs that we need to acknowledge and cater to if you really want to feel fulfilled and successful. Successful, as we call it.

[00:16:38] YD: Yeah. I agree. I agree with everything that you said. I think the Japanese call it the Ikigai, right? That intersection of those three things that you're talking about.

[00:16:46] SM: Yes.

[00:16:48] YD: Yes. But I love that you pointed out what you're passionate about and what you make money from doesn't have to be the same thing. Because that's another thing. I think, in the past 10, 20 years, all that pressure of making money from your passion, that's a lot of pressure to put on your passion and your passion might not start making you money for a long time.

[00:17:10] SM: And that's okay, you don’t have to abandon your passion just because it's not capitalistic. At the same time, you've got to be smart about it, right? You have to allocate your time in a way where you have enough time to do the stuff that makes you money, and then leaves you time to pursue your passion also.

I think that looks different in every industry, that looks different for every individual. But what really binds us all together is, are we really taking that break to explore? Because I can speak for a majority of people where we think that things that we got a degree in, or because we invested five years in the industry, or because I paid my college bills and got this degree, I’ve got to justify it by making that my primary living. 

I can use my example. I was an economics major, I was not even a journalism major. I just landed at a TV channel by chance. I was like, “I like this, and I'm good at it. So, what do I need to do to feel more confident about it?” I realized that an academic degree would make me feel like I have all the required skills. So, I went to school. But had I just been like, “No, I have an economics degree. I really just have to make it work.” Because I did try working at a bank and it made me miserable. But I instantly picked up on that cue instead of just trying and trying and trying. Your body is very powerful. When you're in uncomfortable situations, it gives you cues, and it's not just like work situations. If you’re around bad energy, or like people that you don't enjoy, your neck will get stressed out, you won't feel completely comfortable, as opposed to like, when you're with people that you like and enjoy, you're completely relaxed. It's a physical sensation. It's a mental sensation.

So, we have to trust those cues that our mind and body are giving us. And then also, allow life a little bit to take you on its path. I think that's what I did. I went to journalism school, I worked in media and tech, and then that came to an end. I'm now in a completely different industry. I think because of where I am at physically, location wise, and in my life, this is exposing me to a completely new skill set. By no means is it easy. It's very hard. It's very challenging, but I'm enjoying it and I'm trying to approach it with that mindset and every day is not easy. You have to wake up, you have to actively coach yourself, you have to tell yourself, “I'm capable. I'm here for a reason. If I’ve found my way so far, I'll find my way ahead too.”

That's what I mean. It's a lot of work. I'm reading up a lot, I'm trying to get like all these new skills. You don't magically overnight become this person that you want to be. It's a constant work in progress. You have to be willing to put in the work. But more than that, you have to be open to the change. I think that's very, very important. You have to be open to where you are, what you're feeling, what makes sense for you right now, and then realign your career, realign your hobbies, realign where you're focusing your time and energy on accordingly.

[00:20:01] YD: Yeah, resiliency, I think is what comes to mind when you say those things. But actually, so let's talk a little bit about your path. I definitely want to get into the evolution and what you do now, because I actually don't even know. Because I thought you were still sort of in media adjacent worlds. So, I'm very curious to hear that. But let's talk a little bit about what drew you into the media world in the first place. What did you love about it? How did that happen that you decided to evolve out of media? Because we talked about this, by the way, too. I think some of our conversations about the media world and how challenging it is, as well. So, let's talk about that a little bit.

[00:20:49] SM: I think essentially, why I stayed in media, and even though I'm not directly involved in journalism right now, I always think of myself as a storyteller, because I think that's the part that appeals to me. Like I said, you have hints in your personal life and in your personality that tell you that what you're doing is right. So, I'm a good listener, I'm a really good listener. And as a journalist, that's one of the most valuable skills where you can make somebody comfortable enough to talk to you, and really talk to you in a meaningful real way, instead of just giving you things that you want to hear. I think that's what made me enter and stay.

Secondly, the time when I entered the media industry, and I started out from Pakistan, there were very few female journalists and the ones that were in the industry were all these remarkable women that were strong, that were standing their ground, despite it not being the norm for female journalists. So, I think it was their energy and the paths that they were creating that I kind of wanted to emulate for myself, because sometimes you're just looking at people and you're like, “I want to be like that.” But you don't really know what about them it is that you like.

But I think at that point, I thought that because they're in this industry, and they're these kinds of women that I want to be like, I want to be strong, I want to be independent, I want to be a go getter. So, I stayed. And then eventually, that kind of changed and I ended up in the tech world. I started doing content for leading tech companies like Facebook and Twitter. I could have very well stopped myself there, because I had no tech experience, and these are big names, and it seems very intimidating to move from another country, because I moved back from Pakistan to the US because I really wanted to be in New York. I wanted to operate on a global scale.

I think, I basically maybe needed some validation that I was good enough for a global market, and that's really what I was chasing. And these things landed in my lap. There was obviously that doubt, “Am I good enough? Do I need to be here? Do I need to stick to the traditional storytelling methods that I'm trained in?” That's what I meant when I said, when you're in a new place, if I'm in New York, and I have the world at my feet, what am I really doing by limiting myself and saying, “No, I'm going to do traditional reporting jobs,” when the industry has changed, when those jobs don't exist. 

So, I did that for a few years. And during the pandemic, we decided to move back to Pakistan. One thing that's been constant in my story is, I've been shuttling back and forth between New York and Karachi, which is my hometown. I think that's also quite poetic that both these cities keep pulling me back, and I can't decide which one has my heart, because they both do. And they both contributed to who I am in very different ways. So, when I'm in one city for longer, I feel the itch to go and see the other one, which reminds me of this other person that I am, and then kind of become a mix of these two people that works for me, that I'm comfortable with.

So, we moved back during the pandemic and I felt like I was – I couldn't go back to the media, because everything that it had to offer, I'd already done it. I kind of wanted to move into the tech space, because that had also become my specialty in the past five years. As a person, I'm just amazed by technology, and like, how it's solving problems on a scale that was unimaginable a couple of years ago. How you have all these young, intelligent people looking at these key areas. They're looking at education, they're looking at health, they're looking at finance, and trying to solve all of these problems in an inclusive way using technology.

I took a step back. I actually took eight months because I was like, “I don't want to rush into the next job. I really just want to see where I want to go next because I am in my mid-30s and I want to make meaningful decisions.” Because you don't want to be shuttling around and then it's a violation of honor codes. You don't want to do that to employers. So, I was like, “I'll take some time, just see what life here feels like, what I want to do,” and I'm now working at a FinTech startup, where I'm leading communications for them.

Essentially, the job is the same. I'm still telling a story. I'm telling a story for a company. I'm telling the story for the consumers, about the consumers. I didn't even realize back then but my journalism background is actually very, very valuable. Because I'm doing user research, I'm going out and talking to the target user. Because I have those skills of empathy and language and compassion. I can sit down with them, even though they belong to a very different section of the society and really understand what their needs are, what their problems are, and how we can improve them.

So, that's what I'm doing right now. But I think that had I stuck to those goals of like, “Oh, I went to an Ivy League, and I got a journalism degree, and I spent so much money and am I wasting it by switching gears when I'm 35,” I probably would not have ended up here. Maybe I would have been more comfortable, because all of these changes have been uncomfortable, to be very honest. They have taken a lot of work, they still are a work in progress, as I said. But in terms of learning, in terms of growth, in terms of me being able to say, “I saw this opportunity, I went for it, I tried it.” How it ends up playing out remains to be seen, but just that confidence that comes from allowing yourself to go after what you want, I think there's just no replacement for that.

As you grow older and smarter, you realize that physical locations are just an external marker. Everything that you need to be is within you. Just because you're in one part of the world, or you're moving from developed to developing or a different country, your reality externally might change. But like the skill sets that you have, they travel with you. So, if you're a builder, you will build something, regardless of where you are. If you're an artist, you will find inspiration, regardless of where you are. We tie our worth, very often to where we are, what opportunities are around us, who we are surrounded by. Whereas what we really need to do is look inwards, and see, “Everything that I need is within me, and I just need to make it work in this setting now. It's going to be new, it's going to be different. I might learn something new, I might fail in a few ways. But everything that I require, I carry with me. I don't need a country or an infrastructure, all of those things to really make me happy.”

[00:27:07] YD: I can resonate with a lot of what you're saying so much, because I feel like I've been on a very similar journey.

[BREAK]

[00:27:14] YD: Hey, friends. I'm interrupting myself here for a quick second to let you know that I've created a brand new resource just for you. If you're enjoying listening to this podcast and want to start pitching your travel stories, go to geniuswomxn.com/pitch to get access to my private pop-up podcast of three short episodes that reveal the secrets of successful pitching. That's geniuswomxn.com/P-I-T-C-H. Okay, back to this episode. 

[INTERVIEW RESUMED]

[00:27:46] YD: The good part about aging, because in our societies, aging for women is wrought with so much. We are taught to feel very anxious about aging. I think that one very excellent thing about aging is that you grow so much into yourself, like I am at the height of loving myself right now.

[00:28:11] SM: Absolutely.

[00:28:13] YD: What you said earlier about, why did I ask you about validation? Because I recognize myself in it. I was that person. I was like, “I need to go work for this company, because that will validate me as this successful MBA grad.” Now, I'm like, I feel the same way. I'm like, all of it is within me and I don't need any of that validation. And that just opens you up so much to so many opportunities. It's so amazing, now I see different possibilities everywhere. It's amazing.

[00:28:49] SM: Because we have blinders on, right? You're like, “Oh, I'm in this industry. This is my career range. I'm a mid-career professional. These are the kind of people I want to work with. This is the pay scale. What are the options with that?” Whereas if you work in reverse, and be like, “This is everything that I have. Now, let's see what the world has to offer,” then you will see opportunity everywhere. We all are such a multitude of skills, right? I could be an excellent neuroscientist, but there could also be a creative part of me that I never really allow myself to discover because everything that I do is so geared towards what I'm trained as and what pays the bills and where I'm most employable.

So, I think it's also an injustice to our own potential. Because we are all multi-dimensional. We are not just born with one skill, but throughout our life, we're just dogmatically chasing that one skill, chasing that one industry, and we cheat ourselves of all these other experiences that we could be having.

[00:29:44] YD: So well said, Sarah, because that to me, again goes back to that conversation of putting yourself into this one box. I think in some ways we are living in a wonderful age, because I think people are becoming more and more tolerant and open to us showing ourselves in different ways, and understanding that we don't have to be this one thing. I call myself a, you know, I'm a writer, I'm a photographer, I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a community builder, I'm a storyteller, I'm a group tour leader for my trips to Jordan, and all of that. I want to be all of those things. I don't need to select just one and think that if – because there is this also the finish, or there is this view that if you're doing all these different things, you're somehow not successful at any of them.

[00:30:37] SM: Yup. I mean, I'm physically healthy, if I'm physically healthy, if I can run, if I can work out, why isn't that something that I count as an accomplishment? There are so many people who would kill for that. There are so many people who would kill to be able to move without pain, who would kill to move with that freedom. These are things that so many people still don't have. But we don't include that as parts of our story because our story is always limited to what we do for a living.

I met somebody recently and she asked me, she was like, “So what do you do?” And I instantly, like my first instinct was to tell her that I'm a journalist or I'm a communications professional. She was like, “That's not what I'm asking. I'm asking, what do you do? What do you do with your time?” And when she said that, I was like, “I do so many other things that I would never really use to describe myself.” But because the question pushed me to think like that, we need to be questioning ourselves more. Okay, so I'm just one person, but I also may be – I’m an immigrant, there are so many skills that come with that, because the kind of things we go through in that domain prepares us for so much. I'm also an athlete, or I'm also like, I'm a caretaker. I'm taking care of someone who needs me. That brings out a different set of skills and this all adds up to the holistic version of me, as opposed to just describing myself as something that I do for eight hours a day. That's so limiting.

[00:32:00] YD: I love that. I love that so much, Sarah. I think I'm going to adopt that.

[00:32:05] SM: Same. That's how I'm going to ask people because I just think you open them up in a completely different way, and maybe even make them think about themselves in a way that they haven’t.

[00:32:17] YD: What a gift that is to them, right?

[00:32:18] SM: Yup.

[00:32:19] YD: So, you said something, you talked about that push and pull that comes with living in or like feeling that push from both New York and Karachi. You recently tweeted here that, “If the past one year has taught me anything, it's that home comes in different forms, and the minute you stop trying to define it, life opens up in unexpected ways.” I just loved it so much. I wanted to ask you, if you've come to a sort of an understanding of what home is for you?

[00:32:54] SM: That's a really good question and that's something that I've really actively thought about in the past one year, because you've known me. You know how much I love New York, and how hard I work to create a life for myself over here. So, when somebody tells you, “This is not going to be it anymore, you got to do something else.” It's not always easy, right? So, I was resistant towards moving back. It didn't come seamlessly to me. I had a job here. I had a home here. I had a life here. So, I had to wrap all of those things up. You add a pandemic to the mix, it's all chaotic. You don't even know what to expect. You don't know when you will be able to come back, because the time when we left, there were barely any flights going in and out.

So, we literally just put everything on the line and like took a leap of faith. As soon as I got there it's not like I just gelled right back in and picked things up. It took a lot of time. I'm glad that I took that time because being with yourself is one of the hardest things that you have to do. Really acknowledging where that fear is coming from, where that insecurity is coming from. Because usually, we like to assign the responsibility on external things. “I feel here because I'm in this city, and I don't have access to X, Y, Z.” But that's really not the reason, it's because you don't like that version of you that exists in that city. But what if that version of you has changed, right? If you're happy with who you are, you're confident, and it doesn't matter where you are, you will find a way, you’ll look deeper.

I think it really comes from a lot of self-awareness. A lot of the things that we're feeling and assigning to other people, “Oh that person makes me feel like that,” or, “Being here makes me feel like that.” It's usually everything that's about us, there's something deeper. Even small things like when someone's judging you, you usually feel hurt when that's something that you're raw about yourself, that you blame yourself for. If you're confident in that decision, and that's something that's thoughtful, other people's judgments don't matter anymore. So, I took all of that as a learning and really tried to get to the root of what made me so angry about me about being in certain cities, why I was so unhappy, and then actively try and fix that.

One of the big things that used to bother me about being in Pakistan was not being able to be mobile, right? Because movement is limited. There's always been like this gender dynamic there, security dynamic there. Despite my immense privilege there, I'm not able to move as freely as I do here. I realized that and I was like, “Okay, so this is what bothers me. I want to be able to go wherever I want. How do I solve this? What do I need? Do I need a car? Do I need to learn how to drive myself? Do I need to stop caring less about what other people think?”

So, doing that, and then setting boundaries around what was really important to me, and making sure I got that done, rather than sitting and feeling sorry for myself, and just taking charge of things really made a big difference. I can very confidently say that I'm thriving there as much as I was in New York, only because I made peace with a lot of the things that were unresolved, things that I wasn't aware of, and things that have solutions within you. But just because we're not aware of them, we don't really do anything about it.

[00:36:06] YD: I think self-awareness is one of the most important skills that we can learn in our lifetimes, because from that comes everything else, right?

[00:36:18] SM: Always said something about like aging, and have you heard when people say, “Oh, women enjoy sex way more in their 30s?” Why is that? Because we know what we want now. In our 20s, we are not vocal about it. We don't know what we want. Had we learned the sooner, we would enjoy sex for far longer. It's very easy to just diminish that to age, but like you have to understand, why is that? Is because, “I'm clear about what I need. I'm vocal about what I want. I get it.” That's why sex is better in your 30s. Biologically, there's no miracle that happens in your 30s. You're just very sure of what you want, and not afraid of asking for it.

[00:36:54] YD: And you’re not focused on validating yourself through sex and pleasing the partner. Of course, there's pleasing the partner in the sense, but what I mean about is, at least –

[00:37:06] SM: What does that do for you? Thinking about that, what makes me happy? What makes both of us happy? What works? So, the very tiny, stupid example but I think it's so easy to just attribute it to age, whereas I don't think it has anything to do with biology or age. It has to do with confidence, coming into your own self-awareness, and then really asking for what you need.

[00:37:27] YD: Oh, yeah. I mean, it has to do with age in the sense that it takes time for us to get there, right? It's almost like we come into this world and then we grow all these layers based on our family, our societies, things we get exposed to, and then it takes time to peel those things off, unlearn, is a good word. I mean, I've been on this path for the past couple of years that I've really started to come into it, and I love it. I freaking love it.

[00:38:02] SM: Get rid of shit that's not serving you. Because we're not born with it. We just kind of take all these responsibilities upon ourselves to be this person and act like this, and who's really holding you accountable? You, yourself. And realize where something's working for you, where it's making you happy, where you need more, and then realize the parts that aren't working for you and let that go.

[00:38:26] YD: I think what you mentioned, you said that a couple of times, taking responsibility for your own. That is so critical, too. Again, for me that realization again, came only recently, that no one else, I can place that responsibility for my own life, for my own happiness, on no one else. Absolutely, no one. Not a partner, not a significant other, and not a mom or dad, it’s mine. I think now that I've gotten to this realization, I see a lot of people, even in their later years, they haven't come out of that cycle, and they still place the responsibility on other people, and then they're surprised why –

[00:39:08] SM: And you talk to that other person, and they're probably not even thinking about you because they have their own shit and here you are waiting for them to save you and you're like, way off their radar. You're not even like in their thought process, you’re just wasting time, man. Take charge. I really believe in manifestation and good energy, attracting good energy. I think there is a very conscious energy that we put out in the universe, and there are things that we want for ourselves that we can turn into a reality just by how we speak to ourselves.

If you're going to constantly keep putting yourself down and telling yourself all the ways that you're not capable or don't have everything that's required, that's where your life is going to end up, as opposed to when you change mindsets and are like, “Okay, I don't know this. But it will come to me. I'll find the resources.” Things just start opening up.

So, I think there's a very – I wouldn't call it spiritual, but I think there's a very strong internal element and willpower that's attached to it, that we discount, because we assign that responsibility to degrees, to our finances, to the resources that are available to us. But more than that, do you have the willpower to do the work that's required? I think that's very, very important.

[00:40:24] YD: Yeah. I will also bring a bit of a signs point of view into this because I'm really interested in the subject. You talked about manifestation. I talk about it almost on every episode, because I believe in how this energy works. But scientifically, what is happening is that your brain is actually looking for signs out there in external reality, to match what's happening in here, in your brain, in your thoughts. So, when your thoughts are, “I can’t do this. Nobody who's going to – who’s going to believe me? Who’s going to take me on?” Your subconscious is actually looking for signs of that outside, and then that starts unfolding, right? Exactly the other way, when you give yourself a slightly different direction, and say, “This is possible. I don't know how I'm going to get there, but it's possible. I'm capable.” Your subconscious starts looking for signs of that and finds them too.

[00:41:24] SM: And your brain is fucking smart, man. You just have to tell it what to do. If you're going to tell it, “I need to fail”, it will make sure that you fail. If you tell it that I need to be successful, it will find ways for you to be successful. You have to give it the right training, the right coaching, and then be open to doing the work. You can't just sit there on your couch and manifest $5 million, you'll have to go out and work for it.

But I think it's the first part, that part is where people get stuck. I think the actual work is maybe easier for a lot of people. It’s getting up from that couch and believing that I can do what I need to do, to get this done. I wish I knew about this sooner, I would approach things very differently. I think my worst defense mechanism was, “I'll set the expectation so low that if something good happens, I will be pleasantly surprised.” That's such a stupid way of thinking. Like, you're selling yourself short. Aim high. Aim for the stars so that wherever you fall is going to be a place that you're happy about, and approach things positively, rather than going in with a negative mindset.

So, there's all these stupid things that you unconsciously do throughout your life, but because we don't talk about it, we don't assign importance to it, you don't really resolve them until you're like in your 30s and old enough and maybe fortunately surrounded by the right friends, that you really examine how these things are impacting you.

[00:42:47] YD: So, I'm curious to talk a bit about – by the way, I am starting to hate the word mindset because it's so overused now. It's everywhere. It happens when words get overused, they tend to lose meaning. I feel like it’s happening with that word now. LIke community for example, that word gets overused. But I’m curious, when we say, “Change your mindset, start thinking all these other thoughts.” Practically, how do you do that? Because that's always a question. I think, if somebody is listening to this podcast, and they're like, “Okay, yes, great.” But then they're back into that cycle because that was so powerful. It's something that we've been doing for, you know, for decades, really, and it's so hard to get out of it. I'm always curious, how do you do that practically? Or what's your approach or what's your take on that?

[00:43:41] SM: I'll give you a very simple example, but I think it's the small things that make the change. So, on Sunday, I was feeling very frustrated because workwise, I was trying to get things done that weren't moving. I felt like I wasn't accomplishing the things that I had set out for the week. I had two options. I could either go out and meet friends or I could stay at home. I thought, “What is it that's bothering me right now and what will make me feel better?” I really narrowed it down to the fact that I thought I would accomplish a number of things this week, and I wasn't able to because I wasn't able to close the loop on that.

So, I need to do a few tasks where I close the loop, so I feel like I accomplished something. Now, it's a very simple thing and what I ended up doing was cleaning the house and doing laundry and fixing things. But just that completion, that cycle of, “I started something and I closed it,” I think it triggers like dopamine or something in my brain and it made me feel better. 

Previously, in my younger days, I would have just tried to go out, meet people, distract myself, not try to address what was really making me feel bad about it. And we just tend to like drown things out. I'll meet someone, they'll make me feel better. I'll watch this, this will make me feel better. It's a distraction, and sometimes you need it, but I think what will really help you move past is addressing, “What is it that makes me feel like this right now, and then what can I do?” Maybe it's not the top thing that you wanted to do. But what's the next best thing? “Maybe I can cook. Maybe I can clean this. Maybe I can write an email that's been pending. But that will directly address the feeling that I have, which is incompletion, which is restlessness.” I did that, and honestly, it works.

I think it's maybe being old and all that cleaning makes you feel better. But it's also the cycle, right? That I can start something and do it from start to finish and wrap up a task. I would not have done this. I’d be like, “Oh, who cleans on a weekend?” But that's what I needed and that's what my mind needed.

So, those are the things that I do. There are certain people in my life that I know can pull me out of that place, because they've done it. So, I save them for those special occasions when, you know, I'm really sinking into self-doubt, or feeling lost. We don't even have to talk directly about the problem. But some people just have this quality where they put things into perspective. So, you have to recognize what your need is, and what it is about that situation that will make you feel better.

One of the things that I've really consciously worked on is also developing a good relationship with my body, and realizing how physical factors also impact how you feel about yourself. If I'm feeling very stressed, I'll go for a run, because just being outdoors, and I think your relationship with your body is also multi-layered, right? Once you start respecting it, once you start trusting it, it goes in so many directions. You also start thinking about the food that you're consuming, then you start thinking about where that food is coming from, then you start thinking about how you're impacting the planet, then you start thinking about the quality of the food.

So, it's really like a whole cycle that triggers you, starting about your mind and how you want to respect that also. You start reexamining the content that you're consuming, you start reexamining the company that you're keeping, because all of a sudden, instead of having a passive relationship with your body, where you're just born into this one thing and are stuck with it, you are approaching it from a position of control. You're approaching it from a position of strength. And then you really just want the best for yourself and your body and your physical being.

I think that's also one coping mechanism for me, because I think so much of what happens to us physically also impacts our emotions, and we just don't take control of it. We just think, “Oh, okay, I'm feeling like a bum today. I'm just going to let it be.” But all of these things are within your control. When you exercise that control, you're taking back your power. And really, I think the vocabulary that we've traditionally seen around fitness and all of that, has been around like weight loss and loss. That was something that I have a big problem with. I think we need to really change the language there. Because, yes, weight loss is an end goal. But there's so much that you gain out of it. There's confidence, there's control, there is really that trust in your body that, “I can put it into any situation and it will see me through the other end, because I've trained it, and I can train it more, and it'll get better.”

So, that constant relationship of upping your game, and then seeing the direct impact, I think as women, we really, really need to focus on it. Because our bodies go through so much, they change so much, they evolve so much. I don't think we have the awareness or the tools to deal with those changes. When you get your period, or when your period ends, or when you get pregnant, if your hormones are raging, do any of us know what's really happening inside our body? We just try to put band aids and have ice creams and all of that. But that's not a solution. You’ve really got to understand what's going on there and what you need.

[00:48:40] YD: Yeah. For me, it's so uncanny how we're been on similar journeys in the past couple of years, because that's been my journey too, is evolution of how my relationship with my body goes. And that for me, actually, it started with food. Food triggered it for me. Because just at the beginning of COVID, I went through a sort of a cleansing program. But cleansing is not the right word, it's more like resetting how you view food. And that program just really put me on a whole new level of how I think about food, and what I put into my body and how important that is to realize what we're putting into our bodies. From that, my relationship with my body changed.

[00:49:25] SM: And when you notice how different foods make you feel, there's a very – it’s not just about filling your stomach. Different foods make you feel very different things. And most of us don't know what that sweet spot for us is. We are vegetarians for a certain reason because our bodies respond better or if you are on a high carb diet or if you eat too much protein, it's all aligned to your needs, and how it affects your performance and how you feel after. We just keep consuming things mindlessly. That's really why the planet is headed where it's headed, because we are not even conscious of what we're consuming and why.

[00:50:01] YD: Yes. And like you said, it then triggers all these changes in other areas, because from there, when I started respecting my body, it contributed to my feelings of loving myself and worthiness. And then that started triggering different changes in different ways.

I mean, again, we go back to being aware and being self-aware, and being mindful of all these different areas that’s in our life. But I wanted to ask you, I'm looking at the time too, and I know we can talk for many hours more, but I want to start wrapping this up a little bit because three-hour podcasts are not a thing yet.

[00:50:49] SM: We'll do that documentary sometime else.

[00:50:54] YD: But I wanted to ask you, well, two things. One, in the beginning, you talked about seeing those strong women, and you wanted, sort of, that energy, or you wanted to emulate that. I can relate to that so much, because, man, there's just something about seeing a strong, confident, powerful woman that – and by the way, strong, powerful, confident, but also kind, and also with the energy that is nurturing. Not trying to emulate the masculine energy too much, but in our way, being strong and powerful, which is such a beautiful energy to be around. By the way, I've always felt that energy from you. I think that's one of the reasons why I always wanted to connect with you and be around you as well.

But how do you think about that now? Because I feel like we are now – interestingly, we are coming into this stage. I see the effect that I have on some of the women, for example, in the Genius Womxn community, too. I just wonder if your understanding of that has changed as you're sort of evolving yourself? Or how do you think about that?

[00:52:10] SM: I think sometimes in life, we meet people that we don't even think we need, and they just kind of leave a mark on you for life. But having said that, I do think there's a very conscious effort that you need to make, to pay it forward. Because it's a circle, right? There are women who came before us. There are women who are going to come after us. Everyone is going to come with their own unique set of challenges.

So, to answer your question, when I approach new situations, or when I walk into a room, or if I walk into a work setting, I always try to be that one person that people feel comfortable with, so that they feel like there's a friend in the room. Because when you're unsure or when you're insecure, which I was, in my early years, which a lot of us are, just having that warm face in the room, or somebody answering questions for you or just telling you that your questions are not stupid, it's completely okay, showing you the reins, that can really determine a person's decision to stay in a situation, because sometimes people just run because of the whys that they're feeling or the discomfort that they're feeling. If you can assure them that this is not something you need to worry about, you're in a safe space, you're in a good space, you’re in a friendly space, and you just need to focus on what you need to do.

So, I really just tried to be that person, because I do believe in paying forward. That doesn't mean that if I've started paying forward, I'm going to stop taking. I'm still taking so much from the world. I still have role models. I still have people that I want to be like, I aspire towards. The other thing that I think I've read recently that stuck with me is that when you see something in someone you like, that something is within you as well. This is why you resonate with them. That's why people are attracted to each other. When you see something in this really successful, ambitious, kind woman, that's because a part of you also wants to be like that.

These interactions happen for a reason. We come in each other's lives for a reason. But we have to be willing to take, but also give. So, while I'm still continuing to take from women who are ahead of me, who are better than me, who I aspire towards, I also very consciously try and keep an eye out for younger people on my team or newer people that I meet. You recognize the signs, right? Youth is a little bit predictable in terms of the things that you go through. You recognize the signs and it's very easy to be like, “It's not my problem, they'll figure it out. I’ll figure it out.” Or you could take a moment and be like, “I can help them out or I can say a kind word or I can share these resources with them. Or I can shoot an email where I know an opportunity.”

So, that's something that I very consciously set time aside for in my week or in my work here, because your thoughts keep overlapping. We're in industries where you keep meeting the same people again and as you grow, your time becomes so valuable. I was just talking to Aisha about this last night and I was like, “I used to be so free, man. I would go meet anyone. I would take walks for hours. But right now, it feels like my time is the most valuable commodity.” So, then making that conscious decision of spending that time with someone where you might not directly get anything out of it, that feeling.

Another thing that I did was I started teaching because I think good teachers really leave a mark on you, teachers who can show you what the possibilities are, because a lot of academic programs are structured in a way where you are taught, “These are your resources, this is where you live, this is what you have, I'm going to give you the skills to go earn a living within these resources.” But I think a true teacher is one who tests your imagination and tells you, “Okay, you have all of this. You can do this. But think about what else you can do. Think bigger, think smarter, think better.”

So, that was one other way that I thought I could pay forward. I keep looking for these small, tiny things. And at the same time, also continue to look for role models, because I think they evolve. And you constantly need to have people that you look up to, and avoid making mistakes that other people did. There's so much value in learning from other people's experiences. Why repeat some of those stupid things that can be avoided?

[00:56:15] YD: Yeah. I resonate with all of that, what you're saying. For me, the Genius Womxn, actually, became this unexpected gift to myself, because as I share, as I sort of create this community around me with all these women, it makes me feel so happy sharing with them and teaching and showing. It's really a beautiful thing. What are you most excited about in your life right now?

[00:56:43] SM: For the first time in my life, I think I'm excited about not knowing where life is going to be. Because I'm someone who's always been very structured. You can't simplify it, it's not just because of the kind of person I am, but we all come with like, cultural baggage, gender baggage, where we're supposed to have things sorted out, figure out that there are milestones that we need to reach, by a certain age. There’s a biological clock that’s ticking. There’s a professional clock that's ticking.

But like you said, for the first time in my life, I just feel happy. I'm content with who I am. I'm trying to enjoy the things that are happening in the now, as opposed to worrying about how this impacts my next year, or where I'll be in the next couple of years. Really realizing that this is everything there is, just go take a nice walk, sit with a book, have a conversation, go do that project, go take that course, because there's no medals for waiting, and you don't even know whether you will get to that point, right? We don't know what life has in store for us. I don't want to be somebody who looks back and has regrets. I would rather do things and have regrets than wonder what may have been. That requires a lot of courage. But I think, my 30s have given me that, and I'm very, very grateful for it.

[00:58:05] YD: I love what you said, there’s no medals for waiting. Yes.

[00:58:09] SM: Yup.

[00:58:11] YD: That needs to go on a T-shirt or something.

[00:58:14] SM: I would love to.

[00:58:15] YD: Constant reminder, for sure. Sarah, this has been such a beautiful conversation, like all of our conversations. I really loved it.

[00:58:23] SM: It’s amazing.

[00:58:25] YD: But I want to close it with this one question that I often close with, and it’s sort of a big one, but how would you start thinking about what does it mean to be a woman today who is stepping into her brilliance?

[00:58:41] SM: I think there are not enough women who wear their passion as a pride. Like we're all always trying to juggle our passions while we do the things that are expected of us. What if it was the reverse? What if we lived our passions, and then did the other things as complimentary services? Maybe this is more relevant to like South Asia, or how I've grown up. Bu I often think about all the potential that we wasted because we drew our blueprints for all these girls and young women and told them that this is everything that you need to do. We tied their sense of worth to certain milestones like marriage and settling down and being liked. What is that about?

I try and imagine a world where we no longer do that, where women are just born and are allowed to run in the direction that they want to. And then when the rest comes together, falls together, and it does. It does. It's not something that you have to actively work towards. Whenever those things are meant to happen, they happen. But should you be spending your entire life trying to fill in expectations of a life that's not even your own dream? What if we really allowed women to dream?

So, if I can be an enabler in that sense, whether that's as a mentor, whether being as vulnerable and honest about my own personal journey as I can, whether that means raising a daughter like that, I don't know what that looks like. But I always want to be an enabler for women who have dreams. I never want a young girl to feel like, “Oh, this is not for me.” Because I don't think there's anything that makes you feel worse than being told that you can't do this. Because everyone, I think, can do anything, if you will allow them to really come into their true being. Unfortunately, with women, we don't allow them that freedom.

Usually, even if they do, the privileged ones get one shot, and they're so scared of making a mistake, because that's the only shot they get. Whereas men fail, try, move forward. Everything's okay. It's all a work in progress. But women just get the small window where they need to do everything and it's not possible. If you have big dreams, you're going to continue to do that and you need to have partners, you need to have an enabling environment around you. I've been very fortunate to have that. So, I really hope that I can pass that forward in whatever capacity is possible.

[01:01:04] YD: It’s so beautiful, Sarah, and I think, knowing you, even in the sort of small window that I get to see you in, I think you're already well underway on being that enabler. 

[01:01:19] SM: That’s so kind of you. Thank you. Thank you. And likewise, I can say the same for you.

[01:01:25] YD: Thank you. Thank you, Sarah. Very happy.

[01:01:28] SM: This was wonderful. Thank you. It has left me a lot to think about too.

[01:01:33] YD: I can't wait to share this with our listeners. Thank you so much, Sarah.

[01:01:36] SM: Take care. Yulia. I'll speak to you soon.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[01:01:43] YD: Thank you so much, dear listeners, for sharing an hour of your day with us today. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Sarah. If so, please consider leaving us a review so that more listeners could find our show. I really can't stress how important it is for us to get reviews of our podcast. It helps us get in front of more people who might enjoy our show. So if you’ve been inspired by something you heard today in our conversation with Sarah or in any other episodes of our show, please consider leaving us your review. That is one of the best ways you can support our podcast. Thanks again, and I'll see you next week for a very special episode that features a workshop we recently ran in our membership, The Circle.

[END]