S4 E46: Working Full-Time As A Freelance Journalist With Iona Brannon

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[00:00:00] Iona: it's abundance, you know, and when I feel abundance that abundance. Into every aspect of my life, into my career, into my relationships and to everything. And so I think cultivating that abundance and then letting it pour out into other people that is what it means for me to be a woman stepping into my own excellence.

[00:00:20] Yulia: Welcome to the genius women podcast. I'm your host, Yulia, Denisyuk, an award-winning travel photographer and writer with work in some incredible publications like National Geographic, AFAR magazine and more. And this year you see my name in places like Conde Nast Traveler. I'm on a mission to help other women who want to grow their trouble, storytelling, careers, go after their dreams while feeling supported, worthy, and bold. If you're ready to ditch your fear and doubts to the side, step into your brilliance and take action on your dreams. You're in the right place. Let's go. 

[00:00:58] I think you're really going to enjoy this conversation I recently had with Ayana Brannan. Ayana is a travel beauty and personal finance journalist would work in places like Conde Nast traveler for their struggle, blown up at seeds and more. She's also a friend who I loved connecting to earlier this year when we hosted several trouble media.

[00:01:19] Together on the clubhouse audio app, Iona is a brilliant storyteller and the fighter for social justice and better representation in media and media. In our conversation with discuss a wide range of topics, such as what full-time freelancing looks like. The support Ayana got along the way of getting here.

[00:01:38] Why publications not accepting media trip stories is a barrier to entry into this industry and asking for more money. When we negotiate our rates. Coincidentally asking for more money is a topic we just discussed in our membership, the circle last month, where we covered the exact process of asking for more, when should you do it?

[00:01:59] And some of the reasons why we don't, if you're looking for the kind of support and community we'll discuss in this episode with Ayana, I invite you to check how the circle at geniuswomxn.co/circle. All right, let's get into this. 

[00:02:15] Yelena and dear Ayana, welcome to the genius women podcast. I'm very excited to have you answer this.

[00:02:23] Iona: much. I'm so thrilled to be here. 

[00:02:25] Um, so your story for photos travel magazine, this couple is bringing brown representation into van life resonated with me so much. And for our listeners, we'll link to it in the show notes too. So you can go check it out, but really this idea of, Immigrant kids having an added layer of pressure that maybe somebody who was born here doesn't have is that we have to succeed in this very traditional way because our parents, they sacrifice so much to bring us here.

[00:02:57] Yulia: And when I was reading that story, that really resonated with me. I mean, for me, that was the whole. Uh, reason why it was so hard for me to quit my marketing job and get into this path because it was like, you're going to do what now. So I, I resonated with that so much, but I would love to hear, what do you love about the story that you wrote?

[00:03:18] Iona: So I actually funny enough met SIM, um, on clubhouse and she kinda was telling me about. We are talking about, diversifying the outdoors in one of the clubhouse rooms. And she was sharing about how, they always cook Indian food on the road. And we got into the whole conversation about what it looks like when first and second generation immigrant.

[00:03:42] Go in the outdoors. You know, the food you bring is different. The gear that you bring is different sometimes, and the way that you approach it is different. And so this was kind of an extension of that conversation because one thing that she had stressed to me was like, we didn't quit our jobs. And one of the reasons that we didn't quit our jobs is because that would be.

[00:04:00] Too big of a gap for us, you know, as first, second generation immigrants. and I was just so interested in her story and I was like, Oh gosh, I need to, I need to pitch this story. So, throughout the process of the research and interviewing her and her husband, I was able to just hear all the different levels that.

[00:04:21] The average American outdoor van life, or doesn't have to really go through, you know, and there's, there's so many complexities. You don't understand, unless you, you do come from a background like that, where, you know, people that come from a background like that. So it was just such an honor for me to be able to write about that and get that out there.

[00:04:40] Not only for people who aren't familiar to see, oh, wow. These are the obstacles that aren't even monetary obstacles or aren't even the people around you, you know? And, the way that they treat you, it's like. Like your family's an obstacle and the beliefs about what you can and cannot do, what success looks like.

[00:04:58] Those are obstacles that you have to overcome as well. And so the first thing was to share that with people who aren't familiar with. those obstacles. And then the second thing was to show people who, you know, do have a dream of doing something that is unconventional, but they have all of their parents and the pressure of being an immigrant child and all these other things complicating the story, making them wonder, I ever pursue my own dreams because I have so many other dreams that I have to carry on my back as well as my own. 

[00:05:31] this is a blueprint that you can follow, you know, there's these people who they have done it and not only have they done it, but, they've also gained their parents' blessings through, you know, little by little showing their parents what the life that they want is like, and why they want that life.

[00:05:46] So I really appreciated the way that SIM and Karthik kind of broke down. Step-by-step how they got their parents on board. Um,and also their recognition of like, we know how far our parents have come and how much they've grown, but we also understand that it can be too much to ask, to expect the entire village to understand, you know, like a very different culture.

[00:06:08] So Yeah.

[00:06:09] I absolutely loved writing this. 

[00:06:10] Yulia: Yeah, it was so, so well-written and beautiful. And I loved it uh, the detail of, her cooking, and, you know, this smell, this amazing smell of Indian food, which I was allowed so much as sort of going all around the parking lots. And, you know, everybody's sorta like, what, what is that? Cause you, you don't, you don't find that right.

[00:06:30] In those, environments you know, that detail actually shows you exactly the struggle you're just talked about. Right. That's this couple is bringing an absolutely different experience or a different way to live this experience to a very, uniform. man, life movement, I would say.

[00:06:46] Right. which has a really cool.

[00:06:47] Iona: Yeah, and they're doing it without being ashamed of who they are or trying to, you know, hide that aspect of themselves where like changing the type of food that they cook or like changing, you know, that just recently, um, uh,dually just passed and they had this incredible photograph that they posted of, of them in their clothes with all the lights around.

[00:07:09] And it was just really cool to see them. Not only. Living the van life, but also celebrating their traditions and their culture while they're doing it in a way that I just haven't really seen very often at all.

[00:07:19] Yulia: Yeah, I saw that picture too, and I loved it. It's it's amazing. It's definitely, really cool. well, awesome. So, Your bio that's been just say this, I honor your bio. I own a brand on, is a biracial freelance journalist who is still searching for her forever. Home has to be the shortest bio in the history of bios everywhere.

[00:07:39] So you have to tell us a little bit more than that. One sentence about your journey of becoming injured and it's, how did that happen?

[00:07:48] Iona: Well, I actually did have conventional training in journalism. I got my bachelor's degree in journalism originally. My very first inclination was to be an international hard news reporter. So that was really what I wanted to do, reporting on cause I grew up overseas, but I didn't see a lot of. Um, good reporting of what was going on in different countries and understanding what the conflicts are about and the history of those conflicts.

[00:08:20] So that was something that I originally really wanted to do is become an international reporter. And then I kind of got sucked into the magazine. Writing and seeing a different side of beauty reporting, fashion reporting, and seeing that there can be a lot of depth to that. I think before working in that industry, I kind of wrote it off as, oh, there's not really, this is kind of shallow writing, but then the more that I understood, the more I was like, oh wow, there is quite a bit here. and then, uh, I, uh, graduated from university and started working in marketing because that's what pays the bills. I was like looking at the journalism entry-level jobs. Not only were they extremely competitive, but they really just. able to afford me a life that also would allow me to prioritize travel.

[00:09:09] And that's something that, from when I was very young was something that has been high on my list of priorities. So I started working in marketing and, just recently actually transitioned to full-time freelancing in the last year, right after the pandemic was first announced, I was furloughed from my job.

[00:09:30] And during that time, I decided to take a, freelance pitching course, by Rebecca Weber, the freelance writing bootcamp. And that was kind of a deep dive for me into giving me the confidence to pitch to publications because yes, I had in my journalism. Backing, but I hadn't really done a lot of online pitching and that's, that wasn't really what was emphasized in my university courses.

[00:09:55] It was more so of like the ethics and reporting and research part of it. And so learning how to really pitch in this course helped me so much. And then I was like, okay, well I have this time, let me start pitching. So I started pitching a couple stories here and there and the. Story that I got was a story for Bon Appetit. And that was a story. It was like a restaurant. They were doing restaurant diaries stories, and it was like an update on how different restaurants are doing in different parts of the country. So I wrote about two separate Seattle. food businesses. And that, that kind of was the beginning of my journey into freelance pitching.

[00:10:34] And then I started writing for multiple other publications, and now I do a lot of travel writing, but I also do, um, beauty writing, anything skincare related sunscreen. If you want to talk sunscreen, I'm a girl. That's like one of my expertise level expertise sections. and then now I'm trying to go deeper into my travel writing to do more reported, travel writing, and actually using my journalism skills that I do have to go deeper.

[00:11:05] And then I'm also hoping to do more personal finance. stories because I just started writing some more business, insider stories. I just recently wrote one about my house buying process. And so personal finance is something that I'm really passionate about as well. So that's something that I'm looking to to pitch more and to write more.

[00:11:25] So it's kind of all over the place. Yulia. That's why I was like, I'm just going to keep it. simple. I'm a freelance journalist. You know, if you pay me enough, I'll write about anything.

[00:11:34] Yulia: I love it. Oh my God. So first of all, congratulations on, going full time. Freelancer. I saw that, I think, on, on your instant stories. So, congratulations on that. Thank you. 

[00:11:44] I'm actually surprised to hear that they don't teach you how to pitch in journalism school. I mean, you would think that, I mean, that's such a fundamental part of what we do.

[00:11:53] I'm shocked that they don't teach that.

[00:11:55] Iona: yeah, I think, you know, I think that part, we had maybe two hours of pitching and it was like writing query letters from, you know, 

[00:12:05] like writing literal query letters that you mailed to them and it was a little outdated. 

[00:12:11] wow. I see. Well, that's, that's so awesome to hear that you also, You got a course that, showed you sort of the fundamentals of pitching and, I'll look it up later so we can link to it in our show notes as well. but what would you say was, the most difficult part of. Getting to this point where you are right now, where, you know, you're working with multiple publications, you're pitching multiple publications here, developing all these stories and you feel like you have enough going on that you can actually, uh, transition into full-time freelancing.

[00:12:43] Yulia: What I mean, I understand that this is probably a, such complex journey as journeys usually are, but, you know, if you just had to sort of think about it for a second, what do you think would be the most challenging?

[00:12:54] Iona: Oh, that's a good question. The most challenging part of getting to where I am now. I think, I mean, this is something that you and I have talked about a lot, right there just more resources are becoming available, but there just really, aren't a lot of resources, especially for travel writing, that are accessible for people.

[00:13:13] Of course know. There's courses and stuff like that. and once you start getting into the industry, you're able to figure out, okay, these are where the pockets of information are, but, that initial barrier is so, so hard to break through. And, um, I really have to thank like my freelance journalist friends who have been a support for me and. I think having, having those friends have really helped break that barrier down in terms of like, Hey, what did you get paid from that publication? What did I get paid for that publication? Oh, why don't you ask for more rates for more? Why don't you ask for more, in terms of your rate, and then, you know, maybe I need to ask for more in terms of my rate or, Hey, I heard that editor.

[00:13:55] Is looking for pitches. Why don't you send something? Having people that you can bounce ideas back with and also gauge information with has been the most helpful thing. But now I'm answering, what's been the most beneficial thing. Now what's been the toughest thing. 

[00:14:11] Yulia: Well it's because it's a response to what you said was the hard, thing, right. Which is that there isn't enough resources and enough openness in the industry. And it's still to this day is viewed as this sort of exclusive. Club for the special people who are able to like jet off on assignments and to to this work, which you know, which is how it's been for decades, really for, since, since the beginning of travel writing.

[00:14:36] Talk about like all the colonialized way of, doing trouble writing and, all the things that we've been talking about in the past year about, you know, what's wrong with that. but I, I do see that the industry, Perhaps, you know, very late overdue, but it's becoming more open. And how I see it actually is things like Conde Nast, traveler recently put their guidelines up on their website, which was so monumental.

[00:15:00] I feel like because for a long time, it's like, if you didn't know somebody inside on the inside, you had no idea what they were looking for. You had no idea how to pitch them, who to pitch you in. And the fact that them and afar magazine, which has also been very. Sort elusive exclusive.

[00:15:17] Yeah, exactly. Right. They also put their guidelines up recently. So for me, this was like a sign to that, huh? Okay. They also recognize that this needs to start changing if they want the industry to become more. Inclusive and more open to people from different backgrounds, right? Not just the people already in the know, because they know somebody or because somehow they were in the industry to begin with.

[00:15:38] Like I see that that's happening and that's giving me hope.

[00:15:41] Iona: Yeah, I agree with you. I think that there's also a lot of scarcity involved in the travel writing industry. And one of the reasons that I initially really connected with you Yulia was just like, In clubhouse, there's, you know, maybe three of us that would talk about travel writing. And I was a little wary at first.

[00:15:59] I was like, oh gosh, you know, are they going to feel like I'm stepping on their toes? If I'm also leading rooms about travel writing and the way that you are. So just generous and warm and open to collaboration rather than being like. Th this is my industry. I'm the one who has the expertise. Like I don't want to talk to you.

[00:16:17] In fact, I'm going to be your, whatever, 

[00:16:20] Yulia: Competition. Yeah. Because a lot of times that's how people see it in this industry. Unfortunately, I come across it all the time that you're like, yeah,

[00:16:27] Iona: Right, but we all get farther when we cultivate generosity and abundance and collaboration with each other, especially as freelancers, when there's already, a power dynamic between freelancers and editors in terms of what we're getting paid and what kind of information we get and all those things.

[00:16:42] So it's like when you are able to. Create that kind of collaboration with other freelancers, we're able to create a union. You know, we're like we're able to, ask for higher rates and we're able to ask for more because it really is not, it's not a great industry right now for freelancers. And I, and I don't think that people can really live off of this one income alone from writing travel, writing, journalism, 

[00:17:10] Yulia: Yeah, it's so interesting that you are bringing this up right now, because we literally have a discussion about this in the circle, in our membership community this month about asking for more money and how do we ask for more money? And when do we ask for more money and you know, what I'm sure sort of sharing inside there is that like people ask me, when do you start asking for more money?

[00:17:33] And my answer is yesterday. Because there are so many people who are unfortunately willing to do this work for next to nothing. I mean, there's a lot of dynamics at play here, right? The print publications have lost a lot of their advertising clients and budgets and like they, they are struggling to, to make ends meet, but also people, lots of people are willing to do this work for next to nothing.

[00:17:55] And so that depletes our. Collectively and we as freelancers, unfortunately don't have the power, the bargaining power in a lot of times. And so what I'm sort of, where I want us to move towards is us asking for that power back in any situation that we can. You know, it starts with asking for more money when you're negotiating for a rate and it doesn't have to be something, crazy or something.

[00:18:19] Um, absolutely let's say unrealistic. That's just never going to happen. But what I've also shared with people in my community is that I've actually started doing. Year or two ago, or only fairly recently that I've started asking for every time I have a negotiation, when we're negotiating a peace, I always ask now and, you know, in maybe 80 to 90% of the cases, I get it.

[00:18:41] Yulia: Maybe I don't get exactly what I asked for, but I get some increase and it just blows my mind. How, if you don't ask or you leave all of that on the table, All that money. And, you know, unfortunately people don't ask because we're afraid. We feel like we don't have the power again, that scarcity mindset comes in, but it's just so, so important.

[00:18:58] And I love that you brought this up as well.

[00:19:00] Iona: Absolutely. I mean, I think that's the intersection of like personal finance and travel writing that really gets me is just like, you need to always be asking for rights. And I also view it. As the pout, like bringing the power of there's already a gender wage gap, right. There's already a color wage gap.

[00:19:18] So there's all of these wage gaps. And one way that I can lessen the wage gap is literally. Asking for more, you know, asking more for me and telling other people that I know to ask for more as well. And collectively, like you said, we can take back that power and increase wages because yes, publications are getting hit in a certain way, but now more than ever, there's ways to make money when you have a big website, you know, there's affiliate links, there's ads, there's all kinds of things that small.

[00:19:48] Business owners, freelance journalists have to start utilizing right in order to make a livable wage, that those publications are using times a million. So it's not that they don't have the money. It's just. People aren't asking for more. So why would you give someone, you know, $200 more when they'll settle for $200 less?

[00:20:08] That's just how capitalism 

[00:20:10] works, you know, and it's, it's horrible, but that's why we have to fight against 

[00:20:14] Yulia: Oh, yes. Oh, I love that. I love that. And, and listen, we have to come back for another episode where we talk about all those ways that you just mentioned in which we can use some of that because I'm, you know, I'm very oblivious to that. I, I, I know nothing about that world, so I would love for you to come and, you know, maybe we can have another episode where you, share some of those things with us.

[00:20:34] That would be, that would be 

[00:20:35] awesome. Yes. Freelancers can make money. 

[00:20:39] So you said that, you know, your, your sort of the verticals that you're writing about are travel, uh, beauty, personal finance. Is that, like, how do you think about your portfolio? Are you thinking about it in terms of what interests me, what I'm passionate about, or is there a sort of, some other approach.

[00:20:55] Iona: For the most part, it's what I'm passionate about and what I'm interested in. If there's something that I'm curious about, and I'm, I'm curious about a lot of things and that's why I'm a journalist. but if there's something I'm curious about, I assume that others might be curious about it too. Right? So just, If I'm wondering, okay, what is the intersection of these two subjects?

[00:21:14] Those subjects that are in the middle of the intersection are my favorite topics to discuss. Like, something that I'm really interested in is, MLMs in the travel industry and that's multi-level marketing scheme. 

[00:21:26] Yulia: in the travel industry?

[00:21:28] Iona: Yup. It's something that I've been trying to pitch to publications.

[00:21:32] I haven't gotten anyone to bite yet, but, multi-level marketing schemes are something that I hate with a passion and the way that it works in the traveling industry? Even more interesting to me. So like, those are things I'm like, oh, you know, I wonder what's the intersection between that and that.

[00:21:47] And then I look and there are intersections there. So that's when I really get my reporters cap on and I'm like, Okay.

[00:21:54] let's time to do some deep diving. 

[00:21:56] Yulia: Yeah, I love that actually. And that's a great tip also our listeners, because a lot of times the questions that I get is how do I develop an angle or like, I'm having a hard time understanding what is the angle of this story that I'm trying to pitch. And I think one way to look at an angle would be.

[00:22:12] to look for those intersections that you just mentioned, right? Because by the nature of doing that, you will draw out some interesting angles and some interesting ways to look at the story you're trying to pitch. when you see, okay, how does this travel story intersect with, you know, whatever other vertical that I'm interested in as well.

[00:22:31] Yulia: That's really cool way to do it.

[00:22:33] Iona: Right. Yeah. And also asking who's being left out of the conversation. That's another one of my favorite questions is like, okay, you know, look at all this stuff happening. Okay. Who's being left out of the conversation and that brings not only brings you a. To explore, but it.

[00:22:51] also brings more intersectionality.

[00:22:53] Right. And brings more,

[00:22:55] inclusivity in what we're writing about because that's one of my biggest priorities is to be inclusive about what I'm writing about and who I'm interviewing. 

[00:23:05] Yulia: Yes. And I remember, you know, from our conversations on clubhouse too, that that's, that's a topic that's really important to you is how do we increase that diversity in trouble media and how, you know, what is the path forward, right. For people who traditionally been really like seriously excluded from.

[00:23:22] And what would you say to someone who perhaps feels like they don't belong here, perhaps for whatever reason, whether it's identity or whether it's experience, or you know, anything else, what would you say or what, what would you start to say to someone who feels this.

[00:23:40] Iona: It's so easy. I feel like to just have something positive, like, oh, as if you're comfortable with yourself, then, then you'll find a way, you know, or something like that. but the truth is that the more I learn, the more I see very real barriers that. For example, a lot of publications don't accept writers who have been on press trips in the past, or who have gone on a press trip, found an incredible angle and pitched that angle because they were on a press trip while they were, finding that angle.

[00:24:13] Their story is no longer, viable. And that. adds such a level of privilege to travel writing. 

[00:24:20] You have to be able to, 

[00:24:22] you know, I love to talk about this, 

[00:24:24] Yulia: Because who is able to go on the, like, who is able to support their own travel 

[00:24:29] this way. Right. 

[00:24:30] Iona: Absolutely. Like if you are, that's amazing for you, but you have to recognize that your preventing so many people who don't have the resources to fund their own, 10 day trip, five day trip to different places and have access to the different people. And you're also discrediting people from being able to work through their own bias and work through the bias.

[00:24:50] You know, potential deemos or sources like that's, that's 1 0 1, Right.

[00:24:54] you can go deeper than your initial source to create, a, a rich story that has multiple people that aren't just mouthpieces for a DMO. so I find it very patronizing that, you know, certain publications are like, oh, well that was a press trip.

[00:25:08] So you must be a mouthpiece. but going back to the advice for someone. The most important thing is to find community. And where you find community, you find access to information. So that's the biggest tip. Obviously, if anyone's listening to this and feels like, you know, you need a first place to start, to me, talk to you about.

[00:25:31] I'm offering your DMC Yulia, 

[00:25:33] Yulia: Thanks Diana. 

[00:25:34] Iona: Feel free to reach out to me because I've been in that position before, and I always want to pay it forward. but finding the. Those communities is key to, be in with, to access those, wealths of information, where as soon as you're able to break through that initial barrier, everything just becomes so much easier and it becomes more like a snowball and you start getting to know people and then you start making your own contacts and then you start to be on Yulia as podcast.

[00:26:02] And that's when you know, you've made it. 

[00:26:05] Yulia: Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that. 

[00:26:07] and for our listeners, Ayana mentioned GMOs earlier, and that's an acronym just in case someone doesn't know it's an acronym for destination marketing organization. So, an organization that is, you know, their, their job is to promote their destination, like a tourism board, et cetera.

[00:26:22] Just a clarification there. Yeah. And I, I couldn't agree more with you. And, I mean, I think for me, in my experiences, for the most part, the publications that I've been working with, they are pretty open. Like they don't have that specific requirement. I know New York times travel is one, but at the same time, their writers has somehow show up on those press trips anyways.

[00:26:42] So like, well, so double 

[00:26:43] standards. Yeah, but that's, that's a really great point. And those barriers that we, Some of us may not even be aware of, you know, are, are very real barriers. so that's a really great point. And for our listeners too, Ayana was talking about finding community. So there is, uh, this new world.

[00:27:01] That's entirely new, but newer, I think they started last year. Community called travel is better in color, for example, which, you know, they do an incredible job of also, uh, raising awareness and spreading some of those resources. So we'll, we'll link to them as well. 

[00:27:16] In the show notes. Um,I wanted to ask you, I Ana you, so you mentioned earlier that your friends, you know, you're, you're really grateful to some of your friends who, helped you, especially in the beginning.

[00:27:27] So, as you sort of, you know, you were transitioning from, uh, from the job that you had to more and more, freelancing and, freelance journalism. how do you see. Being a woman in the space. And did you see a lot of, maybe not role model is maybe not the right word, but did you see a lot of women that inspired you on this path?

[00:27:49] And if so, how did they impact you?

[00:27:51] Iona: Well, I think there's a lot of women in travel writing, um, in at least in my experience. So there was a big pool of people to pick from when I first started my Instagram. Just started following different people in travel, writing in different people in journalism. And that's kind of how I first started making friends and connections with people.

[00:28:15] and there were definitely a few people that I felt I really resonated with in terms of how they were, what they were writing about how they're writing about it and just what, what they talked about, you know? And, that is something that has. Given me an example of like, oh, it's okay for me to talk about these things or it's okay for me to talk about those things.

[00:28:37] Maybe I'll get some hate mail for sure. But having, those people to, you know, yak with and having those people to complain with of like, look at these stupid emails that I got from these people, you know, then that makes it so much easier to work through then doing it on your own. 

[00:28:55] Yulia: Yeah. And again, we go back to finding community, I guess, right. As sort of that support that, that we all know.

[00:29:02] Iona: Absolutely. Yeah. I think for me, the biggest transition was when, instead of just following people and just watching people, like joining them and getting to know them and interacting with them and just seeing people that were talking about social justice. Talking about, the barriers of travel writing and, and seeing people who were modeling that generosity and that, you know, anti scarcity mentality.

[00:29:30] I think that helps me to be like, oh, okay. Look at these people that are freely offering this information or creating resources that make it easier for people to access information. that's something that's doable. That's, it's not like even though the majority of people aren't doing that in this industry, seeing those people and seeing those examples really showed that.

[00:29:51] Okay. I can let go of this scarcity mentality and it can be a collaborative thing between me and other journalists instead of like, oh, there's only one assignment and you know, you and I have to fight to the death to 

[00:30:01] get it. 

[00:30:02] Yulia: Yeah. Oh, I love that you brought this up. I honor, because this is something that I always talk about as well, and you know, what's helped me see how the scarcity mindset is really doesn't make sense, is that. In the circle. we have a monthly call and monthly brainstorming call where we basically will come with our ideas and, you know, we share the ideas and then we sort of bounce them off each other.

[00:30:25] We, we brainstorm where we should pitch them or what should the angle be? And oftentimes I see how even we can be talking about the same destination. But because our interests are so different, the type of story that I would want to ride is not the story that you would want to ride because of just the nature of how our own personal experiences and what we've seen and what we've learned and what we've experienced, how it impacts what we want to write about, you know?

[00:30:52] And I, I see this all the time. And then, and then I'm like, well, why are we competing then? Because the story that I'm going to tell is going to be so different from the story that you tell. You know, even if it's the same destination that we're talking about. So that really helped me to stop because I was for the most part, for me in this career, I was in that scarcity mindset too, because that's, that's the environment around you.

[00:31:14] You're like, oh my God. You know, we have to like, really guard everything and we have to compete for those. but when I started seeing that, it was like, no, I want to reject that, you know,

[00:31:23] Iona: Absolutely. is something, you know, I appreciate that. You said You started out with a scarcity mentality because I think. Not to just jump in deep, but I 

[00:31:33] think living in 

[00:31:34] it, we live in a patriarchal 

[00:31:36] society and, as women we have been taught. To pit ourselves against 

[00:31:41] each other, right. Because the more women pit themselves against each other, the less we can progress together, we're stronger together. We go farther together, but if we're, you know, fighting back and forth, then we're not able to overtake the patriarchy and dominate the world.

[00:31:57] Um,but so it's something that I think. A lot of us need to give ourselves compassion and grace, as we learn to cultivate that sense of generosity and that sense of collaboration with other writers. And there are sometimes feelings, you know, I don't know if you have ever experienced it, but for me sometimes, you know, I'll have a writer friend, tell me about something.

[00:32:17] And I have this feeling in my heart. I'm like, oh gosh, That sucks for me, you know, I'm like, wait a second. And it's after you have that first thought of comparing yourself to the other person and thinking, I wish I had the opportunity, or I wish this, or I wish that, or, you know, they don't deserve it or whatever.

[00:32:32] There's like so many thoughts that can come after you have that initial thought, just to pause and, to reframe your mindset and just say, well, How wonderful it is that they're able to have this opportunity. I'm so happy for them. This doesn't have to do with me. We don't have to, you know, when at other people's loss, it's not a zero sum game.

[00:32:49] And, it really is in the little mindset changes when those thoughts come in of like, oh, look at her succeed. It'll, you know, it's like, it's very easy to have that little voice run wild. And, and when you're able to start making it a practice to pause. Let that voice shut up and, you know, redirect your thoughts to be of gratitude and to be thankful that, wow, look at all these other badass women that are able to continue growing and getting to the top.

[00:33:16] That's how I like to reframe my mindset, to encourage more collaboration with other people and to just squish that scarcity mindset until it's no more. 

[00:33:26] Yulia: Oh, yes. I love everything you just said, Ayana. Yes. I signed on the dotted line under all of this because, and I love, I love that you also shared, uh, how it makes you feel sometimes. And I feel those thoughts too sometimes, but that's where exactly what is powerful is separated. Uh, these thoughts from, you know, am I a good or a bad person?

[00:33:51] If I have these thoughts, it's recognizing that you are thinking this thoughts because you've been conditioned in our society to feel this way through all the different messages that we get. Right. And so I absolutely get those thoughts too sometimes. And then I feel bad and then I'm like, oh my God, I'm, you know, why am I feeling this way?

[00:34:07] But yeah, it's exactly like you said, recognizing that, We've been conditioned to feel this way, but that also means that we have the power to start changing that. and that's honestly, I think long-term, that's where the change comes is where, where lots of us started. Feeling and acting and behaving in different ways where we ask for more money where we celebrate the successes of our friends in the industry and where we don't feel like we're all competing for the same one thing.

[00:34:36] I mean, I think we're a long way away from that collectively, but I think we are making some, good steps towards that as well. Wouldn't you say?

[00:34:43] Iona: Absolutely. I'm definitely encouraged by the steps that have been taken by different people. There's moments when I'm not so encouraged when I'm like, this is never going to change. Um, but for the most part, I do see a lot of change and a lot of people trying to change and trying to redirect the things that.

[00:35:04] They are used to doing right. A lot of people aren't used to thinking about, Hmm, who's being left out of this narrative. They're not used to thinking about, wow, all my writers are white, rich, older women. Y you know, so it's like seeing some people starting to question those and having conversations too. I think conversations are so important between. You know, people to people and, and editors and writers together, writers to writers, editors, to editors as well. Like all of those conversations are so important. And I think sometimes it's, it's easy to forget that conversation is the first step to change. At least in my opinion, it is. and to just write people off in terms of like, you know, they'll never get it.

[00:35:43] this is a waste of time to try to explain that. But. like reminding myself that having these conversations is the important first step. And something that I say is something that could totally change someone else's perspective. Next time they're hiring, or next time they're commissioning a story or they see a subject that isn't something that should be written about by that person or whatever, you know?

[00:36:04] So just recognizing that it is the little steps that create a ripple effect. That's, what's been really giving me hope. 

[00:36:10] Yulia: Yeah. Oh, that's so well said. I Ana and you know, I'm going to say this because this is my podcast, so I can say it, but, um, I'm really proud of how we've built the community inside the genius women, because actually that, that whole competition and that scarcity that we just talked about. We literally don't have it inside our community.

[00:36:31] Like, it's been an incredible for me to see how supportive everybody is of each other. Like it's so beautiful to see. And I think part of it is because, you know, most of the people who are joining us, they are sort of taking their first steps into this industry. And. I dunno, they're just so all of them are so willing to share and so willing to support each other.

[00:36:51] And, you know, maybe also the way I'm speaking about this is, you know, it's. Uh, model then they're replicating, but I'm just, I'm just really proud honestly, of what we're building, because I don't see too many places like that in the industry, you know, based on what we just discussed. So yeah, there you go.

[00:37:09] I said it, I, talked about 

[00:37:11] my own thing, you know? you should Yulia and you really should be proud of it because it is, it is an incredible community that you built from the ground up and it, and you're so right. It is your attitude towards scarcity and your attitude towards collaboration that gives people a model of, Oh, I don't need to do this. And I truly believe that.

[00:37:31] Iona: Newcomers in travel, writing newcomers and travel journalism. They're going to flip this whole thing upside down, so like we have no idea what's going to be happening in the next,and a half, two years. It's going to be so different than it is right now. I really believe.

[00:37:45] Yulia: Oh, I love that. I love that. I Ayana. so I want to actually ask you a question. That's, just came to my mind and I've actually never asked anyone this before. Some I'm interested to get 

[00:37:56] your take on it, but you know, a lot of times we do talk about how difficult. How challenging. And it is like not to, downplay any of those, but I would love to ask you about an experience of working with an editor that you absolutely loved, that you just absolutely loved working with that one editor.

[00:38:15] And what was it about that interaction that you loved so much?

[00:38:18] Iona: Okay. So there's one editor in particular that comes to mind. I wrote a recipe for food, 52, about a dish that my family makes, and it's an incredible dishes. The Chinese dish, a braised pork 

[00:38:33] belly. And. 

[00:38:35] Yulia: Oh, my God. Can I get invited to your, your family dinner or something? 

[00:38:38] Iona: Absolutely Yulia. You're only three hour drive away. I'll make it for you. 

[00:38:44] Yulia: honestly, 

[00:38:44] why, why is it 

[00:38:45] gonna make it happen seriously? Like we have to make it happen now. Okay.

[00:38:49] Iona: I know we definitely do. So I was writing, I was writing the story about. This dish kind of a little background on the dish and the recipe. And the editor asked me for some, um, styling notes because they were going to recreate it and shoot it for the web. And, I wrote down some styling notes and, food media and travel media have both kind of had a reckoning in the past year in terms of,racism in the workplace.

[00:39:17] And so I was a little wary to be honest about how are they going to do this? How do I know. That they're going to respect my wishes, dah, dah, dah. And I had mentioned some very specific things like, Okay.

[00:39:28] this is a dish that's served, family style and everyone has their own individual, small bowls of rice.

[00:39:35] Right. And you take it from the middle of. Put it in your own bowl. So it doesn't make sense for this to be photographed as a single serving. It also needs to have chopsticks because that's what we eat it with and do not, absolutely do not stick the chopsticks in the rice straight up, because that is one of the most disrespectful things that you can do in Chinese culture.

[00:39:53] And she was like, okay, great. I'm sending it to. I'm sending it to them now. And then, so she sent the notes to the photo team and she wasn't part of that process. But what they sent back with the photo team sent back was almost exactly what I said not to do. 

[00:40:08] It was a single serving. They had a fork and a knife.

[00:40:12] Thank God. They didn't have the chop sticks sticking out. Cause I would have raged. Um, but it was like a fork and a knife. And I was like, this is so I just felt so upset and the editor. Asked me. She was like, I don't feel like, you know, this is great. Let me ask them to reshoot it. Is that okay if I ask them to reshoot, it we'll have to push back the publishing time or something like that.

[00:40:31] You know, it was going to be more of a hassle, but she was like, let me see if they can reshoot it because this isn't, you know, accurate. And I was like, okay. That would be great, you know? And so, they reshot it and it turned out much better because they were following my styling notes. that is just one example that I can think of, of when an editor really stepped in, uh, as, an ally and spoke up for me because it's something there's already that power dynamic that we've talked about a little bit between editors and writers, right.

[00:41:00] As a writer, If the editor doesn't like you, they're not going to be giving you a lot of stories. Right. And if you don't get a lot of stories, how are you going to make it in the industry? So there is this delicate balance when you are someone that wants to bring up things that aren't okay of. How much can I say?

[00:41:17] How much can I critique before this hurts the editors, ego, and they no longer want to work with me. Um,and this editor in particular really model. What to do because she was so, upfront about it. And she was, she was like, let me do this. Let's figure this out. And I never felt like, oh, like, I feel bad for asking for a reshoot of this dish, you know?

[00:41:39] And that's probably the biggest experience that stands out in my mind, 

[00:41:45] the best editor experience. 

[00:41:46] Yulia: yeah, no, a really good example of that. And honestly, what Chuck's mean in that whole story that you just shared is that. They're sort of shooting themselves in the food when they don't follow your instructions. I honestly don't understand that.

[00:41:58] Like you have an opportunity to create this really authentic, real representation of something and you just totally ignore all that. Like what, 

[00:42:07] Iona: Right. And you're going to get roasted by all the people that see that image as well, you know,

[00:42:13] Yulia: but we need editors like that more. And if there's like that, for sure 

[00:42:16] Iona: Absolutely. 

[00:42:17] I love that. Thank you. I think I'm going to make this question a regular part of the podcast, because that's not something we hear a lot of stories, on, you know, those great interactions with editors and people need to know that those do exist and there is still there's Joyce, uh, about working in this industry.

[00:42:34] Yulia: And there is a reason why we are in this industry and, I think for me, those great interactions with editors who value your work, who trust you, who value your ideas are. It's like one of the best things about this industry that I'm excited 

[00:42:50] about. So speaking of being excited about something, what are you most excited about, uh, working on right now?

[00:42:57] Or maybe something that's on the horizon for you or in the next year? Is there something that really. Sparks your joy to borrow Marie Kondo's language. 

[00:43:05] Iona: Oh, that's a good question. a, it's kind of an overwhelming question, to be honest, because we are in this final. I don't want to call it a sprint because I'm trying to fight against workaholism. I don't even know, you know, from like just working all day and night and just grinding so hard.

[00:43:22] Um, I'm trying to slow down in this last section of the year. I know it's not the last quarter, the last two months of this year. And I'm excited to have the space to dream and to think about creative pitches. Honestly, that's one of the most exciting things for me is just as a full-time freelancer.

[00:43:40] Now I have so much more space to create and to think about. Quirky things and investigate and have that space to really dig deep into stories and to figure out, oh, what about this? What about that? And actually chasing after those little, rabbit trails, instead of, instead of thinking, oh, this isn't, this isn't going to be a quick or easy story.

[00:44:02] I don't have the capacity for this. I need to move on. 

[00:44:05] Yulia: Oh, I love that. Yeah. That's that whole idea of creating space or having space to pursue those curiosities. That sounds amazing. That sounds beautiful. and I hope that you get all the space that you need and, that it will lead to some. And actually, it's not that I hope I have no doubt that it will lead to some really wonderful stories that you'll, uncover as a result.

[00:44:27] Iona: yes. Keep an eye out. 

[00:44:28] Yulia: Yes for sure. And, you know, I love talking to you. I own, I don't know if you can tell, 

[00:44:33] Iona: I love talking to you too Yulia. Since our clubhouse 

[00:44:37] days, we can just chit chat forever. 

[00:44:39] Yulia: we do. And so we'll have to, we'll have to do a rebate for sure. Cause I think there's a lot more than we can talk about, that we didn't even get to talk about today. but I wanna close, I guess, actually with this question that. It's kind of a big question, too. but how would you start thinking about what does it mean to be a woman who is stepping into her brilliance what does it mean to be stepping into my brilliance as a woman? I think it's confidence, confidence in my ability, confidence in my writing skills, something that is really interesting to me is How we as women sell ourselves short and 

[00:45:18] Iona: as women, you know, women face way more imposter syndrome than men, women apply for jobs that they're not qualified way less than men and women are paid way less than men, you know? So it's just like in all these different aspects. Women questioned themselves so much more in terms of, am I good enough?

[00:45:38] Do I have what it takes? Am I worth this much? Do I have value? And for myself, something that I am trying to own more is. That I am good enough. I'm a fantastic writer and I do deserve that much money and it's not crazy that I'm asking for it, you know, and being able to do all these things with confidence and knowing that I'm going to deliver excellence something that, practicing. 

[00:46:02] Yulia: I love your answer. Iona. It's an answer that's very near to my heart as well. I think about this a lot too. And, I think this is something that's all of us, women needs to start bringing more and more into our lives, through different things, different practices, different community buildings, uh, all kinds of different ways.

[00:46:23] But I think, I truly believe that when more of us start feeling that confidence and that wordiness. The whole world is going to be a much better place. And I know it sounds very cheesy and stupid, but I truly believe that. 

[00:46:35] Iona: It doesn't sound cheesy or a stupid, 

[00:46:38] not at 

[00:46:39] Yulia: Thank you. Actually, that's see. That's a great example right there with me downgrading myself right away.

[00:46:44] As I said that to what? Like what's no, don't do 

[00:46:47] that Yulia. 

[00:46:48] Iona: to summarize it in one word it's abundance, 

[00:46:51] you know, and when I feel abundance that abundance. Into every aspect of my life, into my career, into my relationships and to everything. And so I think cultivating that abundance and then letting it pour out into other people that is what it means for me to be a woman stepping into my own excellence. 

[00:47:09] That's all Thank you. No, this was really beautiful. And I think our listeners will gain, a lot of insights and a lot of inspiration from what you had to share with us today. And we'll definitely have to have you back on the podcast so we can continue our conversation.

[00:47:23] Yulia: Thank you so 

[00:47:23] much for being here today. You're welcome. It was my pleasure. 

[00:47:28] Thank you so much for listening today. I hope you enjoy this conversation we had with Ayana. And if so, please consider leaving us a review so that more listeners could find our show. I really can't stress how important it is for us to get reviews of our podcasts. It's really helps us to get in front of more people who might enjoy our show.

[00:47:48] So if you've been inspired by something you heard today in our conversation with Diana or in any other episodes of our show, Please please consider leaving us your review. That is one of the best ways you can support our podcast. Thank you so much again, and I'll see you next week for, oh my goodness.

[00:48:05] Our last episode of the season.