S5 E57: Inside Travel Media’s Biggest Conference with Travel Writer Hannah Foster-Roe

Get the show’s transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] YD: Welcome to the Travel Media Lab Podcast. I’m your host, Yulia Denisyuk, an award-winning travel photographer and writer, entrepreneur, community builder, and a firm believer that every one of us can go after the stories we’ve always wanted to tell with the right support, encouragement, and structure. I’m on a mission to help women storytellers everywhere break into and thrive in the travel media space.

If you’re ready to ditch your fears to the side, grow your knowledge and confidence, and publish your travel stories, you’re in the right place. Let’s go!

[EPISODE]

[00:00:37] YD: Alright, well, welcome to the podcast. Dear Hannah, I am so excited to welcome you today. You've been on the podcast before, you've come a couple of times, and I always love talking to you. Today it gives me great pleasure to introduce Hannah Foster-Roe, who is a journalist, content writer, and photographer. She creates stories about responsible travel, culture, and nature. She made the leap to change her career during the pandemic. And she has been published in some really great publications like Time Magazine, Matador Network, House of Coco and others. Hannah is also our travel journalism masterclass students and she has been with us inside our membership, The Circle, I think, almost since the beginning, which is just so incredible. She's one of our most active and supportive members in the circle. So we're just very lucky to have Hannah with us today on the podcast. So welcome, my friend.

[00:01:41] HFR: Thank you. It's good to be here. Good to be back.

[00:01:44] YD: Definitely. So the reason why we're talking today is that Hannah recently went to IMM, International Media Marketplace Conference. And if you sort of heard me speak about travel, travel media, in other spaces or on this podcast, you know, you've heard this before that I always say that IMM is the conference to be at for travel photographers and writers who wants to make connections in the industry, who wants to get to know tourism boards, tour operators, et cetera. This conference is held annually all over the world. They have it in the US, in January in New York, and they have it in London in the spring, and they have it in other locations as well. We'll link to it in the show notes so you guys can check it out. But this time was the first time for Hannah to attend this conference and she had such a great time. We talked about this inside our membership, and I just really wanted to share her experience with our podcast listeners so that you can sort of see how this works, and hopefully you get excited to apply and attend IMM or other conference yourself as well.

[00:02:57] HFR: Yeah, sounds good. It was a great experience and surprising in quite a lot of ways personally and professionally. So excited to tell you what I learned.

[00:03:09] YD: Awesome. Yeah, me too. Well, let’s dig in then. So I want to talk first about some of the preparations or some of the things you were thinking about before the conference itself. Walk us through that process.

[00:03:23] HFR: So, I'd heard you, Yulia, talk about IMM in the circle, and I know that you'd been before and you'd recently been to the one in New York. I think I'd heard you speak about it in sort of previous years and thought that maybe, I didn't feel – I remember it coming around in 2021 and didn't feel sort of ready to go for it then, because I know that when you apply, it's not just a given that you get accepted. They have to approve your application. So impostor syndrome crept in a little bit last year, and I was just like, “No, not like that.”

I said to myself, 2022, that'll be the year. I just thought it would be a great way because people sort of talk about how it helps them stock up on a year's worth of stories across two days. I was just – when I've not been, I've not been traveling loads, I was like, this would be a great way to think about more strategically rather than just deciding, “Right, I'm going to go to this place and see if I can make a story out of that trip.” You can just be a little bit more intense. I thought it could make me be a bit more intentional about where I'm choosing to go and what sort of stories I wanted to produce over the course of the next year.

Yeah. So, I was just doing a little bit of – I just thought a little bit about what my niche is sort of been carved into and had a few ideas and advance the kind of destinations that I wanted to meet with. But by no means did I – I was very open to – because the selection process as to how you get your meetings allocated, although you have a certain say and who you preference, it's still quite random. It is generated by an algorithm. So I was just like, “I'm going to be open to whoever I get paired with.” And actually, I'm glad I did, because a lot of the meetings that I had, where I was like, I'm not quite sure whether there's a fit here, but I'm going to hold on to it anyway, just in case. Actually, those meetings were the most sort of surprising and the most inspiring to walk away from because there were things that I hadn't even thought about. But anyway, jumping the gun a little bit there.

[00:05:50] YD: No, it makes sense. And we'll get into the process itself and the meetings themselves. But I just want to unpack something that you said, about preparing for it. But I love that you stuck with that intention of going into 2022, even though in 2021, you felt like you weren't ready. What do you think has helped you to feel like in 2022, you are ready?

[00:06:15] HFR: I think just because on a simple level, because I've got more bylines under my belt, but also because I felt I'd grown more in confidence as well, and I felt more, like I was still really scared going into it. But I felt like I had more of a right to be there. Which is silly, because I know exactly what you're going to say, that I would have had just as much a right to have been there in 2021 with less bylines.

[00:06:41] YD: Yes. You know me well.

[00:06:45] HFR: But I just I just felt more like I could talk from a place of experience and a place of just knowing myself better as well this year, and knowing better the sort of stories that that excite me and inspire me. Yeah, just having a clearer idea of what I can offer someone and what stories I want to put out into the world.

[00:07:09] YD: That's such an important thing that you just said, Hannah, and I want to pull that out. But first, and we've talked about this before you and I in our conversations that I see this growth in you as well. I really celebrate you and I congratulate you on it. Because I absolutely see this like when you first came to us, I remember how we had a lot of conversations about imposter syndrome and all those things. Now, I see you and you're talking about pitching here and doing work here and meeting this tourism board, and it's just so incredible to see. You've really grown into this and I love that so much.

But what I want to say is that, what are you talking about knowing yourself and how that's part of that confidence too, especially for places like IMM. This is so important. We sort of jumped right into talking about this without me actually explaining to you guys what IMM actually is, and how it works. So this conference is sort of a – I call it the speed networking for tourism boards and journalists. The attendees on both ends submit their preferences of who they would like to meet with. So the tourism board, submit their preferences, journalists submit their preferences, and then they sort of get matched in that way that Hannah was describing with the algorithm.

So it's a speed networking setup. You have 15 minutes to talk to each tourism board during the day, and imagine there's like 20 to 25 meetings back to back, it becomes pretty crazy. From a tourism board standpoint, when journalists come to them, you can really see quite well when a journalism is just giving you some standard spiel and is not really bringing their niche and their focus into the conversation and just asking, “So what's new here? What do you guys have going on?” I know this because that's what I've gone through myself, and I've gotten this feedback from tourism boards that when you show up to the table, to that conversation, with a really keen understanding of who you are, what kind of stories you want to tell, what is your niche, that conversation becomes much, much, much more fruitful and they are actually excited about it. Because then they're like, “Oh, I see that you're focusing on culinary experiences that you can only have on foot”, let's say, I don't know. I'm making this up. Well, we have this new thing that just opened here that could be right up your alley, right?

So this is part of that knowing yourself and knowing what interests you, what kind of stories you want to do, that gives you that confidence to then come and blow this out of the water.

[00:09:36] HFR: Yeah, definitely. Because I think, that's like what you're saying, that's what the tourism boards need from you as well, because I remember the first couple of meetings I had on my first day when I was feeling just that initial sense of overwhelm. I don't think I explained me very well in those meetings, and looking back, it was just the nerves getting in the way. But you could tell in certain meetings where – because it makes their job easier as well. When you go in and you sit down, you say, “Shall I start by telling you a little bit about me? What I'm interested in?” And they're like, “Yes, please. Because then I can tell you what we have that fits with that.” So it makes your life easier, because you're not being told anything that's irrelevant or generic or not of specific interest to your niche, and it makes their job easier, because they then don't have to sit there and do the spiel that they've done constantly over the course of the day. They can put a little bit more color and a little bit personality into what they give you as well.

[00:10:48] YD: Yeah, exactly. That's exactly it. And what I always say too, is that this conference, the purpose of that conference, for both of you for the tourism board, and for the journalists, is to figure out if there is a fit between what interests, the journalists, what type of stories the journalist wants to create, and what's happening in that destination right now. There isn't always going to be a fit. But like you said earlier, some of those meetings that you were like, “Oh, I'm not sure about this, and you hold on to them, and you go and see, sometimes they surprise you, actually, and you might discover some very unique stories that no one else, that other people might miss, which is sort of an interesting experience.

[00:11:31] HFR: Yeah.

[00:11:32] YD: So tell us a bit about some of the meetings that went extremely well, that you were very happy about. I think Azerbaijan is one of them, right?

[00:11:41] HFR: Yeah, Azerbaijan definitely was one of my favorites. And that was just – it was just really great, because there was this – we’d been talking for a couple of minutes and I'd been explaining a bit about my experience and what interested me. And I could see the two women, across the desk from me, and you could see they’re sort of the cogs going as they were thinking about what they could give me in response to that. And as they were telling me about all of the incredible things that Azerbaijan has to offer, there was just this really beautiful moment where it was like the two things came together, my interests, and Azerbaijan's culture and nature and slow food and pomegranate wine. There was just a really beautiful moment where it just all sort of clicked.

Yeah, it just made me really excited, and I was already thinking as I sat there, sort of scribbling notes in my notepad about potential themes to explore and whatnot. And then before I left that meeting, I don't know whether they gave whether they gave anyone else one of these. From most places, I just was given a USB stick or a pen. But as the two leaders from Azerbaijan, I should shout them out. So Buffer and Vidan, they gave me an Azerbaijani tea set, because tea ceremonies in Azerbaijan are a big part. So they gave me this beautiful tea set.

And then at lunchtime, as I was just about to start stuffing my face with like chili and rice or something, they came over to me and invited me on to their table at lunch, because they were sponsoring the lunch that day. So their CEO was in town to give a speech, and they were showing a promo video about their destination. They had a table right in the middle of the room, and there was me and one of the journalists that were invited to join them, and we just had a bit of a –we chatted a little bit more about Azerbaijan, but we mostly just chatted about life and when I had to go back in for my meetings in the afternoon, like bye, and it was like saying bye to old friends. It was crazy. So that was one great meeting.

[00:14:08] YD: That's important, that connection, that human connection, because sometimes actually, that means a lot more than anything else, because these are the people that you will potentially work with down the road, right? Because we go to IMM and conferences like it to create connections with tourism boards. We go there to practice our pitch too, we go there to practice talking about ourselves, but at the end of the day, the ultimate goal is to develop connections that lead into and turn into a hosted media trip, right? And then you will be working with some of these people. So it's important that you like them and you have a good relationship with them, which is sort of what you're talking about.

But I wanted to ask you actually Hannah, having an experience like this is a great welcoming experience. Did it make you feel like you belong in this industry, and did it make you then after – then after that lunch, go back and feel even more relaxed to work with –

[00:15:08] HFR: it totally did. There was just that, because we all want to be validated. We all want to feel like ideas matter outside of our own sort of personal bubble, and it's more difficult to self-validate when you are a freelancer because you are your own boss, essentially. If you're anything like me, you're not very good at listening to yourself. So I can say, “Oh, I think this idea is good.” But until someone else gives me their sort of opinion as to whether – an indication as to whether they think it's good or not, I don't believe it unless I get it from an external kind of saw.

So yes, there was just – when that meeting went so well, and others as well, I was just like, there a few times where it's just like, “I've got this. What was I worried about?” Yeah, and I did just feel, I felt so much lighter after that one. Because it does, it gives you a confidence boost, and it just gives you reassurance, that, “Okay, I'm articulating my ideas well. They're coming across, people are getting what I'm trying to explain to them and what I'm trying to convey to them that I'm interested in.” It did helped a lot when you get and there's something to be said, for talking to people in person as well, and watching their – if their face lights up when they're telling you about their destination, then that's a really good sign. Because on the flip side of that, you could see when people were perhaps a little bit jaded, or bored, tired, which is all completely justifiable and we all have moments like that.

But when you see someone click into full storytelling mode, as they're telling you, and they're getting really animated and passionate about, and that's whether it's Azerbaijan, or the Isle of Wight, or Saskatoon in Canada, or Okinawa or anywhere, you can just see when someone is passionate about the place, and that in turn makes you passionate about wanting to help them tell the story of that place.

[00:17:25] YD: Yeah, for sure. I couldn't agree more with that. I want to say something about what you said earlier about, because we're freelancing, we can't really validate our own ideas. In some ways, I feel like that's one of the central journeys on this path is to learn how to get better at that, how to trust your own ideas, how to not rely on that external validation as much, and it's hard. I'm not saying it's easy, because at the end of the day, and we talked about this, by the way, and I'm going to talk about this on this podcast, again, the randomness factor of pitching, where you can have the best idea, and in the end of the day, it will still fall through the cracks, even when the editor might absolutely love it. And you might say that occurrence and think, “Okay, this idea was not good.” Whereas it was absolutely great. It just fell through the cracks, right?

Again, this is, I think, the journey for the rest of the time, we're here to learn how to be better at self-validating, and interesting and unbelieving. You were just telling me a story about this literally, before we started recording how you pitch someone recently, you kept following up, they never responded to you, and then you got an email today or yesterday.

[00:18:44] HFR: Yeah, I had an email from them, because I pitched them this particular idea months ago, and followed up, and didn't hear anything. So I moved it along and I had it accepted at another publication. That's all – the contract is signed, and it's all happening, and then, this other publication got back to me today saying, “If it's still available, I'd really like to take it. I'm so sorry that it's taking me so long to get back to you.” And there was something a bit smug and satisfying about me having to say, “Sorry, it's no longer available.” That was quite – because I've not had to do that before. The first time I've had to politely decline someone's offer because someone else has already taken it. So that was a nice confidence boost as well.

[00:19:29] YD: Yeah, definitely. Like I said earlier, I'm just so happy to see your growth, Hannah, on the journey because it's like when you tell me stories like this, that you had to politely decline someone's offer. It makes me just so happy that this is happening for you. It's amazing.

So let's talk a little bit about what happens after you go to the conference. What happens then? Because like we said, it's a one or two-day event where it is 15-minute meetings back to back, it’s pretty intense, you meet a lot of people, you click with some of them, you connect with them. You take lots of business cards, you give out lots of business cards, and then everybody goes home and then the emails come. So what happens next?

[00:20:12] HFR: Yeah, like you said, Yulia, you give out your business cards, they give out theirs. You sort of say, “Oh, we'll be in touch.” I think in most cases, I said, I'll follow up with you. But then, literally, the day after, so IMM finished on the Tuesday. Wednesday, I was already getting press releases in my inbox from people that I've met with saying, it was great to meet with you, here's some more information about the kinds of things we talked about. And then yeah, then very quickly, PRs and tourism boards, they most in a lot of cases, they will get in touch with you, and they will send you more information about any specific themes that you discussed, or press releases for new things that are coming up. And then if there are any, you don't hear back from, then the ball is in your court to follow up with them.

But also, I've had some emails being like I want to pick up the conversation that we had at IMM and let's see if we can work on exploring some angles together and crafting some pitches. So yeah, it's basically then a case of carving out a really good amount of time, because you can have up to 56 meetings across those two days, as you know. If you fill up all of your slots, it's a lot of follow up. You've got to carve out a good amount of time, just to sit down and take your time with it and go through all of your take notes in your meetings. That's my number one suggestion when you're – because you can still be present and take notes, it's just better for me to – it’s how I remember better if I've got stuff written down.

I go through my notes, and I identify sort of the key – I sort of circle where there's a good amount of crossover, and I say, “It was really great to meet you. Please could you send me more information about, for instance, new restaurant openings, or walking trails, or about that new wine museum you told me about?” It's very easy to get overwhelmed when that starts happening. Because your inbox just keeps filling up with press release upon press release, and I just set up a separate folder, and I filed them all away in that separate folder, and I gave it a day or two just for the dust to like settle, and then started getting back to them and just saying thank you for this information. I'll be in touch soon with some ideas of things that we can explore together. I'm going to say this as a reminder to myself as well, because I haven't done all of my follow ups yet. I remember, it was a good couple of weeks ago now, don't drop the ball on those connections that you make. You want to sort of act while you're still fresh in those people's heads.

[00:23:20] YD: Although I might add there, that even that is not a terrible – it's not irreversible if you drop the ball, and you don't follow up, because that's actually happened to me this time because I went to IMM, right at IMM, in New York, and again, was sort of a perfect storm of personal things that were happening to me, and they were very difficult, and that's flooded or like that led into Putin invading Ukraine and that all. So, basically end of Jan., Feb., even March for me have been really difficult times. I actually dropped that ball with many of the people I met at IMM this year, and I reached out to them finally, I think a few weeks ago, like mid-March or something and said, “Hey, I'm so sorry, this is what happened. I've been going through a difficult time.” And not one said, “Oh, my god, we're not talking to you now because you dropped the ball, right?” Not one, they said, “No, Yulia, we understand. Take your time. We're here for you. How can we help?”

So it's great. I agree. Generally, we talk about the fact that we want to sort of strike the iron while it's hot and we want to build on those connections we made. But at the end of the day, nothing is irreversible guys, so don't give yourself like a panic attack because you haven't followed up with someone after some time. It's alright. We're all humans and life happens sometimes.

[00:24:45] HFR: Yeah, exactly. Like I said, I haven't done all of my own follow ups either. But yeah, that's basically what happens and then if you do feel like you've gotten to a place, when you want to start crafting pitches out of some of the conversations that you had at IMM, you come up with an idea for a story that you want to pitch and you have a publication in mind. And then you can go back to your contact at the tourism board, and you just say, “Hey, I'm looking to pitch an idea about this thing to this publication. What information do you have that can help me build a compelling pitch?”

[00:25:30] YD: There are a couple of different ways you can approach that actually, because you don't need to take a trip to that destination for every single story you write. I mean, ideally, of course, we want to go somewhere, and then we want to create those stories. But sometimes it doesn't always need to be the case. There are absolutely valid stories that are called desk research stories that take place by the writer, journalist researching, contacting relevant people, in this case, the tourism board and putting their pitches together. But I actually wanted to talk a little bit about the fact that – and we talk about this a lot in the circle, and actually in this podcast, as well, that there's this tension, there's this push and pull between the tourism board who, at the end of the day, eventually some of these conversations will lead to an invitation on a press trip. And they will want to have either a confirmed assignment or some sort of an indication that there is a soft, soft assignment by a publication somewhere.

The tension is that from a journalist sides, we are actually – and editors are also don't quite like it when we pitch something ahead of going there, right? Because in a lot of ways, depending on the story, we're sort of pitching blind. So what I say always is that if this is a new publication that you're working with, and actually you've never pitched with them, you've never worked with them, I don't recommend you pitching them something for a trip that hasn't yet happened. The only time I recommend this as a fee already have a working relationship with somebody, you can say, “Hey, I'm going to Azerbaijan. This is a story I'm really interested in. This is what I'm planning right now. What are your thoughts on it? Would you be interested in this?” And they can give you that soft indication that they're interested. And then you work with the tourism board to make sure it's okay for them. And in a lot of cases it is today. Tourism boards also understand that editors don't really give hard commitments before the trip has happened. But I just want to like mention that there is the sort of dance between the tourism board, between the publication and the journalist is in between dancing with all these parties.

[00:27:46] HFR: Yeah, they are. They're the one in the middle of the dance floor. It's like a dance off. But just you in the middle, like completely exposed doing all sorts of crazy moves. Yeah, I say it's a chicken and egg scenario, because – and I said that to a couple of people that I was in meetings with the IMM, and say, because a lot of the time editors won't say yes to a story unless you've been to the place. But you can't always get on a press trip unless you already have a commission confirmed. So you just have to be sort of tactical about how you kind of go about it. But yeah, like I've sent some pitches already, where I've not based off conversations that I had with people at IMM, and I've sent some pitches already where I've not been to those places yet, because I already have a working relationship with that publication. I feel like that's okay, and because I've been given some really good solid information from my contacts at the tourism boards. I feel like those pictures are still as accurate as they can be without me having gotten there.

[00:28:59] YD: Yeah. And that's absolutely valid and great approach to do that. But again, I think the key distinction there is having a working relationship with the editor, because it's at some part of it is about trust. These editors have worked with you already in the past, they know your work, they know what you can deliver. So they're more comfortable, sort of taking something from you before the trip has actually happened. It's just harder to get that commitment from somebody who hasn't been exposed to your work before. It's not impossible. I'm not necessarily saying that it's impossible to call a pitch somebody and say, “This is about to happen. This is the story I'm pursuing.” But chances are if they don't know you and your work, they're not going to be as open to committing to it, when they already have a relationship with you.

So wonderful. That's what you've been doing now, after the IMM has been over following up with tourism boards, having those conversations. When can we expect to see you in Azerbaijan? Your stories from Azerbaijan?

[00:30:01] HFR: I don't know yet. I need to have a look at my notes and just identify a really clear angle, because we talked about a lot of stuff in that meeting. So I just need to shape it into a really clear angle, and then I can glean some more information from the guys at the tourism board to then get a really strong pitch built. But there’s a lot to explore there, and you come back with way more ideas than you could possibly fit into a year like. I think you just need to prioritize the ones that resonate with you the most, or if there are publications that you're pitching that have a particular time sensitive, they're really into sort of super timely pitches, go for go for those ones first, because things move on so quickly.

[00:30:53] YD: Spoken like a true professional, Hannah, seriously. That's awesome. Like you were saying, you come away with a lot of ideas, and then you sort of have to prioritize some of those that are the most exciting to you, and keep working with the tourism board, and start sort of mapping out the schedule for the year for you. So that's really exciting, Hannah. I hope that you will be attending IMM again next year, because it sounds like it was a really positive experience for you, and it gave you again, that validation, and some of that confirmation that we talked about. It sounds like you've developed quite a few great contacts already with tourism boards, which by the way, and they will be handy year in and year out. You might not necessarily go on a trip to some of these destinations this year. But when a pitch, when a call for pitches comes across your email that would fit, whatever you talked about at IMM, three months ago or four months ago, or whatever, you can still come back to it, and have something there.

So I want you and others who are listening, who maybe have attended IMM in the past, or are thinking about attending conferences like this in the future, is to treat all these connections that you make as really long term resources that you can always turn to as you continue to develop in your career and continue crafting new pitches, new relationships with publications, et cetera. It's all depositing into your bucket of building your career as a travel journalist, as a travel writer and photographer. So I'm very, very happy that you decided to go this year, and you didn't listen to your imposter syndrome as much and had this wonderful experience.

[00:32:35] HFR: Now, I was just going to say, I'm really glad I went, and once I sort of got the first two or three meetings done, I just sort of let myself relax into it a bit more. Because even if you fill up, let's say, even if you were to fill up 40 of your slots out of the possible 56 over those two days, that's still a really fast pace. So it gets to a point where you're moving so quickly, and you're sort of constantly taking ideas over in your head that you don't have time to be nervous. So even if you start the day feeling nervous, you just sort of – you don't have time to panic or anything like that. You have no choice but to power on.

But I'd say to anyone sort of like thinking about it being, whether they're worried about being faced with that many people or having to sell themself like that, just like the number one thing you need to be is just yourself, and just be completely transparent and authentic. Because I went into a lot of my meetings where people would be like, “So, how's your day going so far? How's IMM going for you so far?” And I just be like, “Yeah. It's my first IMM. It's a little bit overwhelming, but I'm enjoying it.” A lot of the people that I spoke to, it was their first IMM exhibiting there as well. So there was just this collective exhale, when we both sort of felt like we could relax into it a bit more and it became – the important thing to remember it is a two sided thing, like a job interview or whatever. As much as the tourism board or the PR company is deciding whether they want to work with you, you’re also deciding whether you want to work with them. If you've got someone sat across the desk for you, where they're just giving you generic, sort of fairly sort of like, yeah, cookie cutter, unimpassioned spiels and if they're looking glazed over while you're talking to them, even the meetings like that are valuable because it gives you an indication what that person is going to be like to work with on a deeper level and trust your red flags.

So there was no such thing as a bad meeting, because even the ones that were that I didn’t – even the ones that I walked away from where I was like, “Okay, that wasn't amazing. But it's still valuable, because now I know there isn't a fit there, or that we wouldn't work sort of cooperatively together, or whatever”, there's no such thing as a bad meeting.

[00:35:36] YD: Yeah, that's such a good way to look at it. I really liked that. You probably also had a lot of opportunities to refine your pitch in those 56 meetings, or whatever. Because every time you present yourself, you might think, “Oh, this resonated here, but that didn't really resonate.” So you're sort of refining it as you go. And by the end of it, I'm sure now when you meet people, if you're going to meet people in this setting, going forward, you will be much more comfortable talking about yourself, talking about, again, who you are, and what interests you, what kind of stories you want to do. And that's all part of the growth, right? That's all part of the journey.

Because the interesting part is that you never know who you're going to meet next. You never know in which situation somebody might come across at you and your work and hear what you have to say about yourself and where that can lead. I tell a story sometimes about an editor at a really big publication coming across me on Clubhouse when I was speaking there, and I had no idea she was in the room, she heard me speak, she then reached out to me via email. I had no idea that this was happening even. So we never know who is coming across us, so this is even a growth opportunity for that. Because now you're going to be much more relaxed and comfortable and focused on talking about what matters to you.

[00:36:57] HFR: Yeah, definitely. I really felt like the pitch on myself, it did evolve over the course of the day, and depending on who I was speaking to, because I did some research in advance. Once you know who you're paired up with, you can sort of go through their profiles, and you get a brief sense of what that destination is about. So I wrote some notes in advance, so that I wasn't going into those meetings like completely unprepared.

[00:37:28] YD: You refine your pitch, and that's really important.

[00:37:33] HFR: You know a little bit about the places that you're meeting with before your meeting, so you know which – you can pick bits – you can chop and change your pitches, you sort of go along, you don't have to have your own set thing that you can say, if you're meeting with a destination that has loads of natural diversity in their landscapes, then you can gear your pitch more towards sustainability, or wildlife, or conservation, and things like that. You can decide as you go along what the best sort of fit is.

But I was going to say, as well, when you were saying about how these are, these are connections that will sustain, these aren't just short term connections, a lot of the – especially if you're meeting with a PR that represents a company or a tourism board, they often represent more than just that tourism board that you're they're having the meeting with. So it's a good thing to do is ask them who else they represent as well. Because if there's not necessarily a fit with the place that you've got the meeting on, you can say, “Well, who else do you represent? Maybe there's a fit there.” And that's something I hadn't really thought of until I got to IMM, and I realized that I was actually meeting with a lot of PR companies. So I did start asking them who else is on your books. And that's a nice way to make the conversation go a little bit further, as well, and allows the people on the other side of the desk, who probably have a very repetitive day, allows them to talk about something a little bit different.

[00:39:25] YD: Yeah, for sure. That's a great tip, Hannah. That's a great tip. Awesome. Well, I really loved that you were able to come and share your experience with us today. I think it's really valuable to hear, especially from perspective of somebody who is attending this for the first time and see how valuable it was to you to go through, all of these processes that we talked about. I actually wanted to ask you in closing of our conversation today, I wanted to ask you a slightly different question. So as you know, and I've shared this a bit in the circle, we have a class coming up, and this is our travel journalism masterclass that I have opening, usually twice a year, and so it's springtime. So it's coming up here soon.

For the first time ever, this class is also going to include a six month support inside the circle our membership. So it's a new way we're doing this. And the reason why we're doing this is that I actually see that the students who have taken the class with us and who stay with us in the membership, they get the best results. They get the best results, they get the most publications, and it makes sense when you think about it, because you need to keep going, you need to keep pitching, you need to keep dedicating your time and your effort into this, and you need some support. You need people to motivate you around you and all of those things.

So there's going to be a first time that we do this again. The class will open this May and it will include a six month support inside the circle, which is our membership with it. So as someone who has actually seen both sides of this coin, you've taken our class you're like the OG you're the original you've taken our class and you've also been inside our membership, the Circle for a while, what would you say to someone who might be interested in this? Might be thinking about what should I do next? Might be even thinking about joining us hasn't been listening to this podcast for a while, has been getting our emails, but has been sitting on the fence for some time now. What would you say to someone like that?

[00:41:43] HFR: I would just say, just absolutely go for it. Because I did the class and then I didn't immediately sign up for the circle. I think I completed the class in like July or August 2020. And then I joined the circle in the following January, and I joined the circle because I really missed that sense of having a team and like having that accountability and that support, and that feeling of that feeling of community. But I've been very – I'm always very vocal about how much the course quite literally changed my life. When I took the course, I wasn't working because I was furloughed from my jobs during the pandemic. So I suddenly found myself with this time to sort of reconnect with, “Okay, what am I really passionate about? What do I really want to spend?” Even if it's just the next chunk of my life. Even if it's not the rest of my whole life, what do I want to spend the next chunk of my life doing? I'd followed you on Instagram for a little while, and then I saw I saw your class come up, and it just felt like perfect timing.

I just say like, if you're someone that's interested in travel, if you are someone that is a natural storyteller, if you're someone that just comes back for a trip and can' wait to share your photos, can't wait to share what you've learned or how you planned your trip with other people. If you've ever thought that travel journalism is this intangible thing, because I did. I was like, travel journalism, travel writing, that's not something someone does. Travel writers are like unicorns, they didn't really exist. And then what the course does is just make it seem like not just within your reach, but like just that you're already – you just need to take not even that leap anymore. You just need to take a tiny little step and then it’s there. It just makes it feel so much closer and so much more possible and just demystifies the whole thing, and it makes you wonder why you didn't do that a long time ago. 

So I can't say enough how much it's done for me and how much the circle is has done for me as well. I think it goes to show that I've been in the circle 14 months now pretty much continuously, because I just can't – it's not that I can't live without it. That's extreme. It's a little bit extreme but it's just a part of – I feel like it's a part of me now. I automatically you know, when it gets to Monday, which is usually the typical day that we all check in on the WhatsApp group and we have our Monday call, like it roll was round Monday. I'm just like, “Oh, it’s genies day today.” It's just really powerful being surrounded by people that are on this path with you. Every time someone shares a win or a non-win, you unite behind them, either way, and either way, watching someone get a success, or again, getting an acceptance or rejection. It doesn't make you lose faith. You just get more conditioned to this is how this thing works. Every time you do see someone getting yes, it's happening. It's happening for people. The course, and the Circle, or the membership, it works. Because we're all living proof that it works, because everyone in that group is doing incredible things.

We've got people who have been in Condé Nast Traveler and Huffington Post and Toronto Star, and Time Magazine, not mentioning any names. It just gives you a blueprint for something that you felt was completely impossible. It's like being given a map to a pot of gold. Yeah, I don't know how many more ways I can say it's brilliant, but it's brilliant.

[00:46:34] YD: Oh, my God, Hannah, you're so wonderful. I don't think I could have said it any better. I really love how you said that whenever we get wins, and non-wins, we unite behind everyone. That is I think the most powerful thing, actually inside the circle, and why the circle works is that we feel such affinity to each other, and we feel like we can handle it, whatever that is, and that is really powerful. It's not often that you find that in this career or anywhere actually, that you have a such a bond with people and you feel like you're not alone, and that there's someone there that you can turn to when you want to celebrate and also when things are difficult.

[00:47:21] HFR: Yeah, definitely. Because there’s something that's so incredible about the fact that I know all the US genies and Canadian genies met recently and the UK genies met recently. But even before any of us had met in person, by the fact that we can feel this affinity like you say, with a group of women that we've never met, that we've never been able to hug or share a coffee with. I feel like we already have such a strong relationship without that. I know that when we are all able to meet together and be in the same room together, it's going to go off. It's going to be amazing. I can't wait to go salsa dancing with you all.

[00:48:09] YD: I know. The world, you got to watch out for us. We're coming. Amazing. Well, Hannah, thank you so much for your kind words. I really love hearing from you always. You know how I feel about you, and thank you so much for sharing your thoughts about what we do inside Travel Media Lab, and how the class and our membership can help others. We have an info session coming up, so stay tuned. I will tell you all the details about it. In that info session, I will share with you what this reimagined program will look like that now includes a class and the membership. Stay warm there London. It's snowing there, and it's snowing here in Chicago as well. So we got to stay warm.

[00:48:55] HFR: There was a crazy blizzard in the middle of our conversation, and now it's sunshine again, like the weather is mad.

[00:49:02] YD: Oh my goodness. Well, I thank you for your time. Thank you for your insights. Thanks for coming on the podcast today. I really appreciated, hearing from you.

[00:49:10] HFR: Yeah, thank you for having me. It was really lovely to talk to you as ever

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