S6 E64: The Path to Travel Writing with Jessica Poitevien

Get the show’s transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:02] YD: Welcome to the Travel Media Lab podcast. I’m your host, Yulia Denisyuk. An award-winning travel photographer and writer, entrepreneur, community builder and firm believer that every one of us can go after the stories we've always wanted to tell with the right support, encouragement and structure. I’m on a mission to help women's storytellers everywhere break into and thrive in the travel media space. If you're ready to ditch your fears to the side, grow your knowledge and confidence, and publish your travel stories, you're in the right place. Let's go. 

Welcome back, everyone, to season six of our podcast. Today, we're chatting with Jessica Poitevien. And I’m so, so excited for this episode. 

Jessica is a travel writer with more than a decade of experience in writing, editing and content creation for both online and print publications. She got her start in the travel industry way back in 2013 using her blog, She Dreams of Travel, to document her expat adventures in Spain. Fast-forward to today, and you'll find her work featured in Travel + Leisure, Condé Nast Traveler, National Geographic, Fodor's Travel and TravelAge West, among others.

In our episode, we talk about Jessica's first ever published story that landed in National Geographic, and how her blog played an integral part in that. We also discuss all the fears we might feel on the path to freelance travel writing, fear of pitching, fear of rejection, and why, to quote Paulo Coelho from The Alchemist, "The fear of suffering may be greater than suffering itself." I love that quote so much. 

We also take stock of the progress made in the travel media industry in the past few years when it comes to racial justice and share Jessica's path to becoming a full-time freelancing travel writer a dream for so many. 

I just absolutely loved our conversation with Jessica as it demystified so much of the process that all of us go through on this path. I am so excited to kick off season 6 with this episode and this conversation with Jessica. And I hope you enjoy this episode as well. 

[INTERVIEW]

[00:02:21] YD: All right. Well, welcome, Jessica, to our podcast. I’m so excited that we were able to find the time. Because I know you just told me you were so busy in the past couple of months traveling all over. I’m very glad that we were able to find the time and finally sit down and talk to you. Welcome to our podcast, Jessica. 

[00:02:43] JP: Thank you. I’m happy to be here. Happy it worked out. 

[00:02:45] YD: Me, too. Me, too. So, the story that you shared with us and that our listeners will see in our show notes, we'll link to it in the show notes, the story called I Gave my Afro-Latina Boyfriend the Police Talk Before Visiting the US. It's such a powerful story, right? And I encourage all of our listeners to go and check it out, and your experience of moving to Colombia. And perhaps for the first time ever, feeling like you could just be there. That highlights so well that layer to existing in the US as a black person, that somebody like me who is not black can never really appreciate to the fullest degree. It was just such a powerful story. I really appreciated that. But I wanted to ask you, what makes you especially proud about sharing this story?

[00:03:39] JP: I think I there are multiple layers to why I decided to share that story with you as the one that I’m most proud of. First and foremost, honestly, that was the story that launched my career as a freelancer. I worked for a travel agent magazine for two years from 2017 to 2019 and I quit that job when I moved to Columbia actually. And for a long time, I was kind of floundering in my life and career because I didn't know what my next step would be. And I was so afraid of freelancing. 

I looked at freelancing as the land of instability, like, financially, mentally, emotionally, everything. To me, it just didn't seem like a feasible career path because, one, I didn't know anybody who was freelancing. It didn't seem like something that was actually possible. I had grown up so used to having a really set career path. Like in my mind, it was you go to college, then you do an internship, and then you get at your first job, and then your second. And I didn't realize that flexibility and freedom were available in freelancing. And so, it just scared me, and I avoided it for a very long time. 

And when we were in the middle of the pandemic, that time period when I wrote that story. So, we're talking June 2020. We're in the middle of the pandemic. The Black Lives Matter movement is kind of starting up again or gaining more spotlight because of everything that was going on. And so, I just had it – The story felt like it was weighing on my chest. I needed to tell that story. And so, it forced me to get over that fear of freelancing. It forced me to get over that fear of pitching an editor. Because I had done a class on how to pitch. Like, I had the tools. I was just afraid to use them. And then here this moment came and I said, "Okay, I just need to do it." Like, I have the tools in my toolbox. I just need to do it. The worst that could happen is that the editor says no and then that's it. That story for me represents getting over that fear of freelancing. And things really took off after that point. 

But I’m also really proud of it because I put myself out there in a way that I knew a lot of people would not understand. Like, how you were saying that, for somebody who's not black, it's hard. Some of the concepts that I talk about, some of the feelings that I mention might not be something that they have ever felt before.

[00:06:10] YD: Because they're not lived, right? They're not lived for us. 

[00:06:14] JP: Exactly. Exactly. There are certain lived experiences that you might be able to read about it and sympathize with it, but you won't necessarily understand it unless you've lived it. And so, I knew that putting myself out there in that kind of way, especially in the heated environment that we were in, especially in a topic that can be divisive as talking about race, and racism, and police brutality and things like that, I knew that it could potentially welcome or open myself up to becoming a target of trolls on the Internet pretty much and just people being really mean and not understanding of this emotional thing that I was trying to put out there. 

I’m proud of myself for getting over that fear as well of ridicule and negativity from people on the Internet. I learned not to read the comments, because I saw some comments on Facebook that really kind of were not pleasant. It was just, overall, writing that story and having it be mostly well-received. And it was a really great experience. 

[00:07:24] YD: Yeah. Oh my God. I think so much of what you're saying, I can relate to. And that fear of pitching is something that I have felt for sure. And I know many other people in our community, they feel that as well. But I just love how you said that there was almost this like urge for you to share that and let it out to get it off your chest almost, which like sounds like it propelled you and compelled you to pitch and to start. Because to do otherwise would have been impossible either. I just really love that. 

But you're saying that that is the story that really kicked off your freelancing career. And we'll get into that in more detail later, because I think a lot of our listeners would love to hear that. This is a question that keeps coming up again and again in any interactions I have, which is like how do you make it as a freelance career? Exactly their concern. It's so difficult. It's so unstable. It's so this and that. Travel industry doesn't pay that well. We sort of all know that, right? But can you share with us some of those ways in which it kicked off your freelancing career? 

[00:08:30] JP: For sure. I mean, my route to becoming a freelance travel writer like I am now was very much an up and down kind of roller coaster. 

[00:08:42] YD: That's recognizable, too. 

[00:08:44] JP: Right? It's funny because people always ask me, "Did you study journalism in school?" And I did start studying. Like, journalism was my major for the first two years of college. But this was also around 2008-2009 when a lot of newspapers were closing down or having to dramatically cut their staff and everybody thought that the Internet was going to ruin journalism and there would be no jobs for anybody. And it was just all – And I had an internship where I was in a newsroom that had maybe 40 or 50 computers and only three or four of them actually had people sitting at them. 

I was getting all these messages even from my journalism professors that this may or may not be a good road to go down. And then I had – When you add that layer of wanting to do travel writing on it, then they really did not think that I was being realistic in my goals. And so, I thought you know what is another way that I could travel the world and still have a job? 

And so, I discovered teaching English as a second language. And so, my junior year, even though none of my counselors wanted me to switch my major, I said, "I’m paying for this degree. So, I’m going to switch it. I don't care what you say. I’m still paying for the degree." So, I switched it to – I switched to linguistics and focused on that. 

When I graduated, I lived in Spain for two years and was working as an English teacher. And that experience allowed me the time and the space to start a blog and to start flexing that travel writing muscle even though it was through a blog and not through traditional media that kind of got me that first round of practice so that, believe it or not, my first – Technically, my first piece as a freelancer, was a National Geographic editor reaching out to me via Facebook. Because she saw my blog and said, "We need somebody to write this story about Spain, about like UNESCO world heritage sites in Spain," and the town where I lived happen to have one, "can you write this?" And I had to Google her because I thought I was being pranked. Like, "This cannot be real. Why would they reach out to me in this manner?" But it was real. 

And so, one of the things that I tell people is to get those clips somehow even if it's on your own personal blog. Like I said, my first assignment was with National Geographic. And she found me through my blog because I put my writing out there and because I was flexing that travel writing muscle. 

And later on, when I returned to the states after those two years in Spain, I was still avoiding freelance writing. I was like, "I still don't – I don't trust this." And so, I started working at a university as a study abroad coordinator. And I really enjoyed that job because I felt like I was helping both international students who are coming to the US to study. And then also helping students from the US go abroad. And so, I felt like I was making this difference in people's lives exposing them to the world essentially or at least helping them, guiding them along that path. 

And it was actually a colleague from that job whose sister used to work for a travel magazine and who kind of gave me that connection to realize, "Wait a minute. There are people who are making full-time livings off of doing travel writing." I didn't think that that was a thing. And eventually, a job opened up at that magazine. 

And with just the only thing that those editors had to go off of when deciding to hire me was my blog and that one article in National Geographic. And with those two things, plus an editing test. I did do an editing test that day that I went in for the interview. But with that alone, they trusted me to be the web editor and copy editor of this magazine. That was digital, but then had a once print publication. 

To me, that just kind of shows that you don't have to necessarily have all these big major clips to get started. Everybody has to start somewhere. And with just the blog, I was able to get fairly far. And so, yeah. That was kind of the initial start of things. And then again, like I said, I quit the magazine job. Because the downside that nobody tells you about working full time in travel magazines is that sometimes you don't get to travel as much as you would think because somebody has to be in the office actually making sure that the magazine runs on a daily basis and for print on a monthly basis. It wasn't exactly the holy grail that I expected it to be. And so, even that kind of threw me for a loop a little bit. And I thought, "Okay. Now what do I do?" 

At that point, even though I had worked with freelancers as an editor, I was still like, "That's still no. That's still not for me." And so, I was looking for travel agency jobs. I was looking for – I was thinking about being a tour guide. I was thinking about all these different ways that I could combine my different interests of helping people of education, of just all these different things. And then the pandemic started. I was very close to getting a job at a travel agency in Boston. I was contemplating, packing my bags and going there, and then pandemic started. And like I mentioned with that story, I was kind of forced to get over this fear. And that just – It just took off from there. It's been a long winding road. But I think the moral of the story with my long winding road is that you don't have to have everything figured out to get started. 

When you take the first step, then the second step will become clearer. When you take the second step, then the third step will become clearer. And I was looking so far into the distance and trying to figure out my entire life trajectory that it was paralyzing me from making any decisions in the present. And that's something that every once in a while, I still have to remind myself, "You got to stay flexible. You got to see how things go." But that that was probably the biggest lesson that I learned throughout this long winding road to where I am now.

[00:15:21] YD: Oh my God. I love all of this. I love all of what you said, because that's exactly what I talk about all the time as well. And I love how you said you don't have to have the whole path laid out. You take the first step and the next step will appear. You take the next step and the next – And that's how you sort of build the path. Step by step, brick by brick you – I think that's a mistake that a lot of people do. Everybody wants that vision. But you have to get there somehow. You have to build a path towards it. 

And what I often talk about is, yes, definitely build the vision. Definitely know where you're working towards. But you have to build almost like a back track. Like, how do you backtrack from where you are today to where you want to be, let's say, a year, or two years, or five years. It's you have to take little steps. And then your past will become clearer as you do. And I just love that so much. 

[00:16:15] JP: And everyone has to look different, too. 

[00:16:17] YD: Yeah. 

[00:16:18] JP: That's the other thing. Everyone's path will look different. And nobody's path is linear. No matter how much it looks linear to the outsiders, for the person actually experiencing it, it's going to be one of these up and down, up and down, up and down. You move forward, then you got to move back a little bit. And then move forward in a different direction. Try not to compare. 

[00:16:38] YD: All of it is okay. Because I think a lot of times, we also put so much pressure on ourselves to sort of have some sort of – I don't know. Get somewhere by a certain age, or have a certain byline by a certain time. And I think, especially women, we're so good at putting those pressures on ourselves that I have to remind myself that too. That, like, "No. It's okay. It's all right." 

[00:17:02] JP: Yeah. I remind myself of that too all the time, that there are plenty of people who are successful and their careers are growing, or they are pivoting in their careers, or they're trying new things into their 40s, 50s, 60s. I don't have to have it all figured out right now. And there's no – And if I don't get my big dream byline now, that doesn't mean that I won't get it eventually. I could work on other dreams and then later come back to that one. There's no time limit for growth. 

[00:17:37] YD: Oh, I love that. I love that message, Jessica. But practically speaking, right? Sorry. I keep coming back to that story and that moment. Practically speaking, what happened after that story got published? Did you start pitching more and getting responses from editors? Or did all the editors suddenly flood your inbox and say, "Come work with me." 

[00:17:59] JP: I wish. That would have been great. I wish they would flood my inbox now, like, "Come on guys." It's interesting. Every freelancer wants to get to that point where the editors are coming to you and you don't have to cold pitch all the time. And it certainly has happened to me. I’ve gotten to points where that happened. But after that first story, I think I started pitching more. Essentially, I realized this pitching thing is not as scary as I thought it was. 

And I was lucky, I will say, that that was my first pitch and it got accepted. So, I had that kind of ego boost, let's say, to kind of propel me forward. But even after I got my first rejection after that. And what's funny is that now I don't even remember what that was. Like, I know that I was rejected at some point. But I don't even remember because it was so – Like, "Okay, fine. You don't want my story? Somebody else will want my story." 

I got to that point where I felt more comfortable with that risk, per se. And now it doesn't even really feel like a risk anymore. Because there's this weird dynamic sometimes, a power play, let's say, between editors and writers because we need them, but they also need us. And so, it feels like your career is in the hands of these people. But then I try to remember that they are just people. And for 99.9% of editors that I have encountered at least, they're all very nice, decent people. And so, there's nothing – That fear just kind of left me and it reminds me of my favorite quote from The Alchemist, which is my favorite book, where he says, "Tell your heart that the fear of suffering is worse than the suffering itself. And no heart truly suffers in search of its dreams." I might have messed up that last part. But the main idea is how many times have we been so afraid of something, worried ourselves, stressed ourselves out, and then that thing we were worried about didn't even happen? Or didn't end up being as terrible as we thought it would be. 

And so, that's the point that I got to with pitching. And so, I just kept sending out more and more. And I realized that the more I sent out pitches, the more ideas came to me. That I felt that it was easier to get into this flow of – Which is sometimes the hard part of where do you get an idea from? How do you come up with something to pitch people? 

Once I started and really paying attention to publications, and paying attention to what was going on, and how can I tie in ideas with just random things that fascinate me or random things that pop in my head and tie that into what's going on in the world? And how that could help readers or inform them or simply entertain them? And so, it kind of avalanched after that. 

[00:21:06] YD: Oh, gosh. I love everything that you said. And I want to unpack a couple of things. First of all, that fear of rejection. It is such a big thing that, again, a lot of people in our community are feeling and it's preventing them from either pitching altogether or pitching prolifically. Because it's almost you're so afraid to experience that rejection that you almost like limit the amount of pitches that you send out because you don't want to get that many rejections. 

But I can absolutely relate. And I say this all the time, too. But that's exactly the same process that I went through. The more I pitch the less I fear that rejection. And the more interactions with editors I get, the more I see how they're just normal people who are probably just overworked, swamped with emails. And that's why you don't hear from them not because you know they hate you or something. 

I think we tend to really put editors on the pedestal in this path. And, yeah, we need to just really see that, again, they're just normal people. And my experience has been exactly like yours, that, in 99% of the time, they're just really nice people who have – In the case that maybe they didn't respond to you or whatever, it's because they're swamped with emails. Again, not because they hate your story. 

I had a thing happen to me recently where I pitched the story to Condé Nast Traveler. And I pitched it and the editor loved it. And she's like, "Oh, let me bring it to the meeting." And then I never heard from her. And then I followed up, and followed up, and followed up and I never heard. And then I’m like, "Okay. Well, I need to take this elsewhere. I can't just wait." I pitched it elsewhere. It got published. And then I did this thing where I sent the original editor the published story, because she said she loved it so much. She really resonated with the idea. I sent her. And then you know what she said? She said, Yulia, I’m so sorry I dropped the ball on this." And I was like, "What?" It was good to hear that. 

[00:23:02] JP: Some validation. Yeah. Sometimes, like you said, their inboxes are so inundated with emails not only from freelancers, but from PR people, from – They're just working with a million different moving parts. Sometimes they might love your idea and it gets lost in the shuffle. Sometimes they might not love your idea, but that doesn't mean somebody else won't love your idea either. But, yes. I’ve had that happen as well where an editor told me, "Oh, I love your idea," and then crickets for some time. Until eventually I’m like, "Okay, should I keep following up with you on this? Or I’m just going to move on?" 

And some stories, I’ve followed up with an editor for almost a year. I’ve spent following up on them. And then there are other times where I said, "Okay, I’m just going to drop it and find this story a different home." Depending on what your goal is with that story and how important it is maybe to get it into that particular publication. I was following up for a year because there was a possibility that it was going to be in print. And I really wanted that story to be in print. So, it was worth it for me to hold on to it for the possibility of it being in print. 

And even though that ended up finally when we worked things out, it ended up being a digital story. I was still happy to get the story placed. But maybe another story that doesn't pull at my heartstrings as much as that one did, I might say, "Okay, this editor's not responding. I’ve given it enough time. I’m going to go somewhere else." I also pitch simultaneously, at least for those initial pitches. 

[00:24:44] YD: Ah, interesting. 

[00:24:45] JP: Yeah, yeah. I know. There's always lots of debate about simultaneous pitching. For me, I not beholden to any editor in particular. And they aren't beholden to me either. And that's also where some of that weird power play comes in where it's like, "I need you. You need me. But you make the final decisions." But then I’m really making the final decision because who's going to write it is me. And so, I’ve definitely done the simultaneous pitching. Because if I wait – I pitch in one place, how long do you wait? Two weeks? Three weeks? 

[00:25:23] YD: The process just becomes so drawn-out. 

[00:25:25] JP: Exactly. The process is so drawn-out. And even with my simultaneous pitching, it has only happened to me once that two editors – Actually, they both came back to me in the same week. And I was like, "Really?" Like, "It's been a while. How did you both come at the same time that wanted the same story?" And I was able to keep the original idea for one of the editors. And then the other editor, because I knew their publication and I knew other types of stories that they liked, I said, "Okay, we can take the nugget from this idea that you liked and turn it into something else." And she liked it. And so, I ended up – Out of that one pitch, I got two stories because I did that little twist on the original angle. 

[00:26:12] YD: Yeah. I love this example that you give. Because, for me, that's exactly what happened to me. And that's the reason why I don't do simultaneous pitching anymore. Because I got exactly into that pickle. And I did exactly the same thing, too. I gave one of them the original idea and I was able to tweak the second one into a different thing. 

But it's interesting how then what I took out of that experience is that I don't want to do simultaneous pitching. But what you took out of it is, like, "Give me more of that, because that works." I love it. 

[00:26:44] JP: Different strokes for different folks, you know? Like, everybody's path is different. I mean, I definitely stressed the first time when I realized, like, "Oh, man. They both want the same story." But I guess for me, because I’m looking at it in a sense of this is my business. And I can't wait around for people to want to make a sale before I start selling to another customer. And because there's – I had friends who say, "Oh, an editor got back to me months later." Sometimes you just never know when an editor will be able to get back to you. 

And then surprisingly, the second editor that I ended up twisting the idea, I was upfront with her. I told her, "Hey, I was doing simultaneous pitching." And this other editor got back to me literally maybe hours before her, which like I said, very strange how that worked out. 

And so, how do you think about this twist on the idea? And she totally respected the fact, especially since so many editors have been freelancers. She was totally respectful. She's like, "Oh, yeah. I understand the hustle of being a freelancer. No problem. And, yes, I like this spin on the idea." And there will be times where maybe that doesn't work out. But I don't think it will ever make an editor blacklist you from working with them. 

[00:28:10] YD: And if it does, then maybe it's a red flag that you shouldn't be working with them anyway. 

[00:28:16] JP: Exactly. Because if they can't understand and respect the hustle that it takes to be a freelancer, then they might give you some unnecessary heartache later down the road. 

[00:28:29] YD: Yeah, for sure. I just love how you see this whole dynamic of working with editors. And I love how you see that, at the end of the day, you hold the power or you control the process because you're the one writing the story at the end of the day. And I think it's so important that we don't forget that. Because, again, a lot of times we're like, "We really just put these situations and these people on some sort of a pedestal where we're just so afraid." But I think it's a great reminder to not be afraid. We own this. It's our ideas. It's our voices. And it's just so important to own that. I love that so much. 

I want to shift gears a little bit and talk about sort of where we started the conversation, which is your story, and about having to explain to your boyfriend what police brutality looks like in the states. Of course, a lot has been said and done about social justice and about racial reckoning in the US and globally in the past couple of years. And of course, the travel media industry has been reckoning, and reckoning, and reckoning. We see this. I want to ask you, do you feel like things have changed in the past couple of years? 

[00:29:42] JP: That's a good question. It's funny, actually I wrote an article for Condé Nast Traveler. I guess maybe it was June 2021, where it was kind of, okay, a year after everybody decided to – Where it felt almost like it became trendy to care about social justice all of a sudden. Like, this wasn't a new movement. But now, everybody was hopping on board. 

And so, Have Things Really Changed? was the article that I wrote. And it wasn't from my opinion, from my perspective. It was from the perspectives of various people that I interviewed in the industry. And I will say, in some ways, I think there have been changes. I think I see maybe a little bit more attention to trying at least to hire diverse writers, hiring writers who, if you're writing a story about the black community, hire a black writer. But then I see publications who claim that they are working on those kind of things and then they're not necessarily following suit. 

It's hard to tell sometimes when a change is genuine or if it's just the optics. Because now, sure, I see more representation, let's say, of people of different colors in travel marketing. But, okay, cool. You hired some black and Asian models to take a picture at your property. Like, what does that really mean? Are you doing the work behind the scenes to make these spaces feel welcoming to people of all backgrounds? 

Also, are we expanding the definition of what diversity means? The BIPOC became such a sensation, let's say, over the last two years. And I always see lots of Twitter calls, "Oh, looking for BIPOC writers. Looking for this and that." Or just more people talking about this big umbrella term. And it's good, because it's starting conversation. But at the same time, I think we also need to make sure that we're addressing the needs of individual communities. If you want to say black, just say black. 

I remember I got an email from somebody, from a PR person, that was like, "Oh, BIPOC-owned company," blah-blah-blah. A open the email, and the owner of the company is a black woman. So I’m like, "Just say that." Just say that it's – You know what I mean? I feel like people are trying to tiptoe around things and trying to be very careful to make sure that they use the right term and don't offend anybody. But to me, black is not an offensive term. So, why won't you just say that this woman is black? Or if she's Asian, then say that she's Asian. And further than that, be specific, because Asia is a huge continent. 

I think that they're still – It's interesting that we keep coming back to fear. And I feel like there's a lot of fear in these companies and not wanting to misstep and get cancelled. Even though I i think that cancellations, nine out of ten times, never last. You know what I mean? You might have a period of lots of people criticizing you and your company. But eventually, most people in most companies move on from those moments. 

[00:33:12] YD: If you're genuine in addressing it and making changes, like – 

[00:33:17] JP: Exactly. 

[00:33:17] YD: You know, what I’m thinking about now is photos travel episodes. 

[00:33:22] JP: Yeah, yeah. I’ve heard about that as well. Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:25] YD: You know? And I think if a company is really genuinely changing things inside and changing things how by hiring people who will make different decisions. And that actually means hiring black editors. Hiring editors who are from all the other backgrounds that are not typically there, which is a white – 

[00:33:48] JP: Exactly. I agree with you. To me, it's one of those things where you almost don't know if the change is genuine until you get close enough to see it. Changes from the outside don't necessarily reflect changes on the inside. But I know, Martinique Lewis, she was one of the people that I interviewed for that Condé Nast Traveler piece. And every year, she puts out a report card for the travel industry and talks about – And she will grade specific companies. Give them A, B, C, sometimes an F. And rates kind of their different ways of addressing issues with diversity and inclusion. 

And something that I appreciate about her work is that a lot of people think of diversity and they only think about race. When she's talking about diversity, she's talking about diversity in all senses of the word and helping people with different abilities be able to access a cruise ship. You know what I mean? That's just as an example. Like, that's something – For me, because that's not an issue that I personally deal with, I’ve never really thought about that. But if a company is trying to be inclusive to people of all backgrounds, then they have to think about those kinds of things. 

I would always point to her as kind of the person who knows the most about if the industry is really making those changes that need to be made. Also, it's only been two years. And I think that you know we're talking about centuries of just underlying issues. It won't get addressed overnight. But in general, I would say there are movements towards the right direction, which is a good thing. 

[00:35:35] YD: Yeah. totally. I think what – Sarah Khan, who was on the podcast some time ago, she talked about the real – And we were talking about the travel media industry, and specifically like the real changes happen when, again, like, the people who make decisions and these publications, editors and chiefs, all the people up the masthead are the people who are themselves people from diverse backgrounds. People from communities that specifically haven't been represented before. That's when you see real change. Not when you just say, "Okay, we're going to have specific BIPOC calls for pitches or something." That's still not going far enough. And I just really loved that perspective that she had. But, yeah, I agree. I mean, we won't change things in two years that have been around for a century.

[00:36:26] JP: Exactly. And I like that perspective, too, about hiring and making sure that there's diverse representation in the people who are making the decisions. Because there are things that would occur to me as a black woman to think about and address that wouldn't occur to somebody else. Or my experience also as being the child of immigrants. That also gives me a different perspective on things. 

The school actually where I learned how to pitch is Write Like a Honey Badger. I actually now co-teach that pitching class with Amanda Castleman who taught me how to pitch. And now, we work together and co-teaching this class. And so, there are certain things that her – Coming from her perspective as a white woman, might not catch in editing these students' pitches where I might catch something. And she brought me on the team in part because of that. To bring that different perspective. 

And even in the stories, I’ve had editors pitch story ideas to me like asking me, "Can you write about X, Y, Z topic?" And sometimes I can tell that they are trying to click a diversity checkbox, honestly. They're asking me, "Can you write about X, Y, Z from your perspective as a black woman?" Well, my whole life is from my perspective as a black woman, because that is who I am every day. 

I think that's where maybe a black editor wouldn't have tried to pigeonhole me into this box of writing about this travel experience from that perspective, because it gets to a point where I – My life is as a black woman every single day. But not everything is traumatic. And I don't want to perpetuate this idea of, "Oh, my experience flying to X, Y, Z country as a black woman." No! I’ve flown to many countries, and it's been wonderful, and it's been great. And have I had issues with racism abroad? Yes, I have. But I also have that here in the US. 

And so, just that idea of trying to put everything through that lens when it doesn't necessarily have to be in that lens, that's also something that I think a person, a black person, or maybe even just a person of color in general would be able to understand that point and not push it. Or sometimes when I’m writing stories about profiling just interesting black people working in the travel industry, even if they are the first person to do something or they're the one who's some superlative, the biggest, the fastest, whatever that superlative is, black people are allowed to do things without it having to represent the whole race. We're allowed to do things without us being the messiah of the people. 

And sometimes I feel like editors want that like extra sauce. They want that extra little something to kind of play up the diversity card or to make the story seem deeper or more profound than it actually is. And sometimes I’ve gotten to a point where I feel comfortable enough to have a conversation with editors and tell them, and push back a little bit and say, "Let's not push this story into something that it's not." Or, "Let's not pigeonhole these people just because they happen to be black." Yes, it is noteworthy depending on the story when a black person does something for the first time. But there's just so much more to these people that I want to make sure that we're not making it all about that. 

And I think if someone were – Like me, we're making the decisions. Then maybe things would be different. So, we need those diverse voices and those diverse perspectives in the decision-making rooms so that these kinds of things don't happen, that pigeonholing. 

[00:40:39] YD: Yeah, for sure. I think it's interesting. I just had this conversation. And for our listeners, I’m sorry that I’m going to mention NFTs again, because that seems to be the thing that keeps popping in into the podcast even though it's not a podcast about NFTs. It's an area that I’m actively in right now. But we had this conversation in that space, because in the NFT world, the representation of women is dismally low. An NFT artist, for the most part, is white males. 

And we had a conversation about, "Well, how to support more women in the NFT space? How to ensure we bring more women into the space?" All kinds of stuff like that. And then we had an interesting conversation with collectors who are the people who are buying the NFTs, where, as a creator, as an artist, I would never want my work to be bought because I am a woman, solely because I’m a woman. I want my work to be bought because it's my work and you connected with it. Not because I’m a woman.

I think it's kind of similar to what you're talking about, right? Where hearing your voice just because you're a black woman who writes in travel versus hearing your voice because your ideas are great, and we need to hear them, and they're having great perspectives, right? I think this – Correct me if I’m wrong. But I think that's what you were sort of referring to as well. 

[00:41:58] JP: Yeah. No. That's definitely part of it. Because when I first started writing, because my piece was so heavily leaned on my experience as a black woman. And shortly after I ended up writing a piece about black expats experiencing racism abroad, because there was also this movement talking about, "Let's leave the US because the US is this and that in the third." And while I agree that my list of complaints about the US is a long one. 

But having lived in Spain, I also know that going abroad is not necessarily the antidote to this problem. And so, when I wrote about that, then I was starting to get a concern, "Okay, are editors only going to want me to write about these kinds of topics?" Luckily, that did not happen. But also, partially because I was making sure to pitch stories that didn't have to do with that. 

I think maybe my second or third piece was talking about the art of maintaining friendships as we age and we're at different milestones. Because a lot of my – A few of my friends had pandemic babies. And I was not – And so, it was like this big change that was going on. 

And so, there I was tapping into my identity solely as a woman. Not necessarily as a black woman per se. This is something that women of all races can connect with, that idea of moving at different speeds or at different directions than your friends. I had to make a conscious effort to make sure that I was not pigeonholed. But I’m also happy to say that I didn't have editors, for the most part, at least not early on, trying to pigeonhole me into only writing about these topics. I appreciate writing about them, because I think they need to be covered. But there's so much more that I can do and write about as well. 

[00:43:55] YD: Yeah. Oh, I love that. I think that's such an important conversation to have. You've had an incredible, amazing portfolio of work that you've built already. And you've written for publications like Travel + Leisure. Like you mentioned, National Geographic and many others. What would you say to someone who is perhaps just on the starting edge of that right now who is looking at your work, who's listening to this episode and hearing sort of about that meandering sometimes journey? What would you tell to that person? 

[00:44:27] JP: If they're afraid to get started, I would say kind of like I mentioned before, that the fear of suffering is greater than the suffering itself. And that editors are people. And even if you get a rejection, that doesn't mean that you're always going to be rejected. And all it takes is one story to kind of open the door, open the floodgates, hopefully, of working with these publications that might be your dream publications. 

Yeah, I think – And if your fear comes from a lack of knowledge, let's say, because I know that beyond my fear of the instability of freelancing, I was also concerned about not knowing where to start and not knowing the how behind pitching or the how behind freelancing. 

Every day, people, friends who were not in the industry, ask me, "So how do you get paid exactly? Like, is it the hotels that are paying you? Is it the PR? Like, who's paying you? How are you making a living?" And so, there is a lot of mystery. 

I think if that's where your fear is coming from, maybe it's a matter of identifying what it is that's causing you to stall. And if it's a lack of knowledge or lack of tools, then go out and find those tools. Like I said, I took a pitching class with the Write Like a Honey Badger school. But there are so many schools out there that help people kind of get this information that they need. And this school in particular, I actually got a scholarship for it, because she has a scholarship for writers that come from underrepresented backgrounds. 

I love Amanda Castleman because she puts her money where her mouth is. That to me is – She says she cares about this diversifying media and things like that. And she's actually doing something towards that. Yeah, first equip yourself. And then once you have that equipment, don't be afraid to use it. Network with people. Try to get into these communities, like your community, of helping people to figure out how to break into travel media. 

There's so many – The Internet is this beautiful place. It can be a scary place. But it's also a very beautiful place where you can connect with so many people who have similar interests, similar ideas, similar goals, and you can support each other in that journey. And I think at the end of the day it comes down to which scares you more? Not trying and never knowing? Or trying and maybe failing? Because the flip side of that is that you could try and succeed. You never know which way it could go. So, you might as well give it a try and hope for the best. 

[00:47:25] YD: Oh, I love that so much. I love that you brought that quote back to our conversation. And I really appreciate that you actually mentioned the teaching. Because I was going to ask you about the teaching that you do. Because I know you mentioned that to me before. So, we're going to link to Amanda's Write Like a Honey Badger site so you guys can check it out as well. 

And yeah, like you said, there are so many resources available nowadays. Back when I was starting out, it felt like it wasn't as resource abundant. Even the fact that many publications now have their pitching guidelines out there for all to see, which wasn't the case back then. We didn't know who to pitch? How to pitch? What do they want? Unless you were already part of the club, you couldn't figure out how to do that. I think that's also you know so great nowadays. 

And of course, we do a lot of that here, too, with our class and with our community. But yeah, like, find people who you like who are doing similar things and get those resources. I love how you put it. Figure out which fear it is that's holding you back, and then address it. 

And I loved hearing your thoughts, Jessica. I feel like we barely, barely scratched the surface. I had so many more things to ask you that I didn't even get to ask you. Like, "What?" It's really wonderful to talk to you and to hear about your journey. And I really, really appreciate how – Again, like, I’ll bring it back to like I really love how you see this interaction between editors and writers and who holds the power in these ideas. I think it's really important for us not to forget that we are the ones who bring those ideas to these editors. And they need us as much as we need them, if not more maybe, sometimes?

[00:49:08] JP: Yeah. Who's going to fill the pages? Somebody's got to do it. 

[00:49:11] YD: Exactly. I think it's so refreshing to hear that. And I really appreciate that. And I want to close our conversation today with this question that I often ask at the end of the episode. And I would love to hear your take on it. What does it mean to be a woman who is stepping into her brilliance today? 

[00:49:32] JP: It's a very good question. I think a lot of times it's very easy for people in general, but especially women, to underestimate ourselves and to give ourselves an answer of no before we even try. And so, to me, I think stepping into your brilliance is stepping into your full potential. It's showing up every day in the best way that you can and realizing that you have to be gentle with yourself because your best today might not look – Like, your best tomorrow might look different than your best today or your best yesterday. 

And so, I think it's this balance of not stopping yourself because of fear. I think a lot of it comes back to that. And not almost stunting – Don't stunt your own growth before you truly give things a try. 

And so, for me, that's what I’ve learned throughout this journey that I’ve been on as a freelancer is to go reach for the stars as cheesy as that sounds and to just – Yeah, I would say that. Just do not stunt your growth before you really give something a try and to address your fears and to know that the fear of suffering is greater than the suffering itself. 

[00:50:55] YD: I love it. And I think that's exactly where we're going to leave you, our listeners. Thank you so much, Jessica. Thank you for coming. It was a wonderful conversation.

[00:51:05] JP: Thank you so much. 

[OUTRO]

[00:51:07] YD: Thank you so much for listening today. I hope you enjoyed the conversation we just had with Jessica. And if so, I want to ask you to please take a minute to now support our show. You can do that by leaving us a rating or a review on the Apple Podcast app, or by sharing this episode with your friends posting about it on social media. It really helps us get discovered by more listeners that would find our show helpful. And it means so much to me. I read every single review we get. And I take them very seriously, because I want to create a great show for you guys. So, if you've been inspired by something you heard today in our conversation with Jessica or in any other episodes of our show, please, take just one minute to support it today by leaving us your rating or review. That is one of the best ways you can help us out. 

Thanks again for listening so much. And I’ll see you next week for a really special conversation.

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