S6 E67: Go Pitch That Story with Travel Editor Lauren Keith

Get the show’s transcript

[INTRODUCTION]
“LK: As an editor, I try to give everyone a chance. If someone doesn't have big name publications behind them, that is absolutely fine. I know what it was like to start with nothing, to just be writing on a blog, or for friends or, “Oh, I have clips from my high school, or college newspaper about something that's completely irrelevant to what I'm writing about now.” That's okay. I think, it's just your style and your personality and attitude actually play a really big part in it. If a writer is difficult to work with, but they're an excellent writer, I don't care. I don't want to work with them. It's much easier to work with someone who maybe isn't as strong of a writer, but who is willing to learn and willing to take edits and feedback and go through that process.”

[00:00:50] YD: Welcome to the Travel Media Lab Podcast. I'm your host, Yulia Denisyuk, an award-winning travel photographer and writer, entrepreneur, community builder and a firm believer that every one of us can go after the stories we've always wanted to tell, with the right support, encouragement and structure. I'm on a mission to help women storytellers everywhere break into and thrive in the travel media space. If you're ready to ditch your fears to the side, grow your knowledge and confidence and publish your travel stories. You're in the right place. Let's go.

[EPISODE]

[00:01:26] YD: On the podcast today, we talk to Lauren Keith. Lauren is a freelance travel writer, editor and guidebook author, whose work has been published in Lonely Planet, Smithsonian Magazine, Atlas Obscura, Al Jazeera, AFAR and many more. She previously worked as Lonely Planet's editor for the Middle East and North Africa, and she continues to travel the region widely. If there's only one episode you'll listen to this season, make it be this one.

Lauren is a veteran travel industry editor and on the show, she drops so many pieces of wisdom; from working in-house at Lonely Planet to going freelance and not looking back, Lauren has crafted a career for herself that has her never coming back to the office. I can relate to that feeling so much. We cover the writing process, including the freakout day and the writing day. Impostor syndrome, yes, Lauren goes through it through, as do I. What she looks for in a pitch, including the number one reason your pitch might end up in a trash bin and her advice to emerging writers and photographers who don't have a big portfolio yet. I loved our conversation with Lauren so much, not only because we both share a love for the Middle East for storytelling and for a creative process, but also, because Lauren is a brilliant storyteller with a curiosity for the world. I hope you enjoy listening to this episode as much as I enjoyed talking to Lauren.

Before we get started, though, I want to remind you that our two-day workshop series called Getting Started in NFTs is almost here. The two workshops will be on August 10 and 17th. In that time, we're going to cover all the basics you need to know to get started in that space yourself. Check out the link in our show notes to register, or go to our homepage, travelmedialab.com. If you're interested and considering joining us, you've still got time, because we start on August 10. 

All right, now back to this episode.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:03:26] YD: All right. Welcome, Lauren, to our podcast. I'm so, so excited to welcome you today and to have this conversation. I've been a fan of yours for so many years now. We finally got to meet in Kansas City a couple of months ago now. I don't know. It's just so wonderful to have you. Welcome.

[00:03:45] LK: Thank you so much. I'm so glad to finally be on.

[00:03:48] YD: Yeah, me too. Me too. Yes, for our listeners, we met in Kansas City, where I was at a Wonderful Women in Travel Summit Conference. Then we met with Lauren. How I actually know Lauren is that we worked together and we first got connected when, I believe, I pitched you something about Oman for Lonely Planet. That's how we start working together. I kept in touch with you on Instagram. I always resonate with everything you're posting and all your travels and stuff. I'm just so happy that we would get to have you on today. Thank you.

[00:04:25] LK: Yeah, thank you so much. It's coming from you, such a skilled photographer, that's very kind words. Thank you.

[00:04:32] YD: No. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you so much. 

All right. Well, so I want to start with your story. 'An Ancient City in Saudi Arabia Untouched for Millennia, Makes Its Public Debut' that was published in the Smithsonian Magazine. It was such an awesome read. I loved reading it. For our listeners, we will link the story in the show notes, but I just really loved learning more about the Nabataeans, which are of course, this ancient civilization in the region, in Jordan and Saudi Arabia. I also loved – I really appreciate your use of language and that story and the turn of phrases you use, like divinely scattered seeds. That was like, I loved reading that. That was so beautiful. I'm curious, what do you love about this story?

[00:05:20] LK: I am a bit of a history nerd. This was a fun one to be able to research and to be able to talk to archaeologists and researchers who have – they've dedicated their entire lives to studying this one civilization. There was one scientist that I talked to, who studies the Nabataeans more generally not at that site in Saudi Arabia, but he just studies the coins and the pottery from this one people. It's just amazing to me that you could dedicate your entire life, your entire work life to researching something that niche and that specific, and I just love that.

The story, I mean, you've been to Petra in Jordan. It's just an amazing, amazing site. As you walk in and see the treasury for the first time, that is something that sticks with you for your entire life. What I like as well is telling stories and learning the history about places that aren't so well visited. A lot of people know Petra, sees upwards of a million visitors a year. But not that many people know about Hegra. Of course, Saudi Arabia was off limits to natural tourism for a very long time. I wrote that story to highlight some of the different aspects of Saudi Arabia. I just love when people tell me afterwards like, “I had never heard of that place. I had never heard of that civilization.” Just being able to tell stories that are out there, but not necessarily obvious is something I love and enjoy so much.

[00:06:52] YD: I can relate to so much of what you're saying, what you said about meeting and interviewing these people who have dedicated their whole lives to this one thing. What I love about this career and this path is similar thing, which is when I get to meet people that are so passionate about what they do; their craft. Because for me, I really love telling stories about different artisans and crafts, men and women and traditions. When I meet somebody who is so passionate about something that they're doing, it's like that passion rubs off on me and I love that so much. You get to meet so many – which other career paths, I guess. You would be interviewing a archaeologist who is spending their work life working on the Nabataean civilization and their coins and everything. It's so cool. I really love them.

[00:07:40] LK: Yeah, exactly. Travel writing is a form of journalism, where people are really excited to talk to you. In other forms of journalism, that's not always the case. Here, you're getting to highlight what people are, like you said, so passionate about and have dedicated their entire lives to. They want to talk to you about it and they want to have their story told. I think that just makes the interview so much more interesting for both sides.

[00:08:07] YD: Yeah, I agree. That's such a great point. A lot of your work revolves around the Middle East region. I believe, also, that's one of the reasons that we connected so well. We are developing such a good relationship too, because I'm absolutely in love with the Middle East. I see that you do a lot of stories there. You also travel there a lot. What fascinates you about the region, and how did you first become, I guess, involved in the region?

[00:08:36] LK: I first became involved – I started working at Lonely Planet many years ago now. I actually started out doing – I was working on the tech side of things, so I was looking after the database, but all of the guidebook information lived on. It was my job to keep that edited and organized and make sure everything worked for all the different products that Lonely Planet made.

My background is in journalism. The other editors on the team knew that. A couple of editors moved on to other roles. There were a couple of jobs that came up and one was being the editor for the Middle East. Honestly, it's a tough one that not a lot of people want to do. I mean, you say Middle East, and whether people are interested in travel or not, they're like, “Oh, politics, war conflict. Not fun.” People who haven't visited especially don't dive into it on a deeper level than that, which is really unfortunate, because there are, I mean, some of the nicest people that I've met anywhere in the world, incredible history, incredible sights.

Then a lot of, and life carries on. There's a lot of modern, amazing things that happen. Every single day, new museums opening, new restaurants opening. It's such a dynamic and evolving place that that's not at all stuck in the past, but doesn't always get the credit from a lot of travelers and travel writers, unfortunately. Or, to their own detriment, shall I say, they're really missing out. I had traveled to the Middle East a few times before starting that job at Lonely Planet. But that really opened the door for me to travel there more often. That was an editor role, actually. I wasn't in the region a lot.

The main part of my job was commissioning and editing guidebooks, articles for the website. Looking after all of the content for that entire region. I did get to spend some time there, but a lot of my time was not on the ground. Then since going freelance, I have had the chance to be in the Middle East a lot more often. I was just in Egypt for six weeks, working on a guidebook for another publisher that I hadn't worked with before. I was really excited to be able to do that again. Always a bit precarious in guidebook world. I honestly after the pandemic never thought I would be working on a guidebook again, because I didn't think they would exist. I was really happy to be back in the Middle East and back doing that again.

[00:11:06] YD: Oh, my God. I love what you said about the Middle East. Unfortunately, misconceptions and stereotypes that has plagued with. I dedicated a whole part of what I do to that right with my Nomad and Joe's company and bringing people to the Middle East, because yeah. It's just so unfortunate that like you said, people don't spend the time to dig deeper and to uncover how beautiful and amazing that region is, and how incredibly, like you said, how happening it is. How many incredible things are – every time I go to Amman, I meet people, entrepreneurs, artists. They're all at the forefront of pushing their art forward, pushing their community forward, pushing business forward. It's so exciting. I don't get that at all from a lot of the stories, or coverage coming out of the region. It's so unfortunate. I couldn't agree more with you.

Gosh, so many questions I want to ask you now based on what you said. I would want to understand a little bit better this whole idea of guide book writing, because I know nothing about guide book writing. How would you say, or what's the biggest difference between a huge project, like writing a guidebook and writing, let's say, a story for Lonely Planet? How do you approach that? What are some challenges? For somebody who is perhaps interested in starting in the guidebook part of travel writing, what would you recommend to them?

[00:12:30] LK: Yeah, guide book writing is a lot different than writing for a website, or for a magazine. It is a massive project and a massive undertaking. It depends a lot on the editor and how well you know them and how well you know the guide book series in general, and how much of the book you decide to take on. Some people write an entire book by themselves, which is a lot, a lot, a lot of work.

For this Egypt book that I was just working on, I was one of three writers. It's just a huge undertaking. Updating guidebooks for Lonely Planet, I think things have changed now. In the past, it meant that you had to go – as a writer, you had to go – physically go to every single place that was listed in the previous edition of the guidebook, as well as find the coolest new openings, anything that had happened and open since the previous update. t's just a huge undertaking. You're in a city and you're going to, I don't know, 10 restaurants, 15 hotels, all the museums, all the cafes, all the bars. You're going to everything. You're going to the bus station to check the timetables. You're going to the post office to see when they're open and closed and what services they offer.

It's really, really, really in depth. It's really time consuming. I'm not complaining about it at all, but it really irritates me when people are like, “Oh, you're on vacation.” A few people said this to be just – Yeah, you're on vacation. Enjoy your holiday here. Enjoy your trip here. It's like, of course, I will. But going to five museums and five restaurants in a day isn't really my idea of vacation. I do live at a million miles an hour, so maybe I would. It's just a lot more in-depth nitty-gritty. Depending on the publication as well, so Lonely Planet asked writers to go anonymously, you are not supposed to tell the hotel, the restaurant, anyone that you were there. Other guidebook publishers work differently. the one I was just working on, it was find a contact places in advance and say, “Hey, I'm coming. Can you let me stay, or show me around? Can I chat to someone who works here?” It's infinitely more in depth, I would say than just doing an article and takes a lot longer. By default, I was in Egypt for six weeks working on two chapters of a guidebook.

[00:14:59] YD: I imagine it's different skill of writing as well, right? Much more fact checking-based approach, I would say, right?

[00:15:06] LK: Yeah, exactly. There's a lot of fact checking involved with it, which a lot of writers really don't like that aspect of, which I can understand. It's like, “Well, why do I need to check a phone number and opening hours if everything is on Google?” It's like, well, not everything on Google is correct. t's best to go in person and verify. At least that was the previous stance. A lot of guidebook companies are doing differently now.

Yeah. Then when you're writing a review of a restaurant, a lot of times, you'll be limited to a certain number of words. You might only get 60 or 80 words. You might have to write an introduction to a city and you only have a 100, or a 150 words. It's a lot more constricted in some ways. Article writing, you have to show off your creativity and your passion and your research in a lot lower word count for those individuals. It's very challenging. Yeah.

[00:15:58] YD: Yeah. I often say that inside our circle membership that when you see those calls for pitches and it says, a 150 words, or 300 words, and then you see some other ones, they're 800 words, a 1,000 words. Well, the ones with the shorter word count are often the hardest ones, because you're so limited in what you can say in that time. You have to be really inventive.

[00:16:22] LK: Exactly. Sometimes, what, if I end up writing something, the requirement is that it's only a 100 words. It's like, well, I'll just give myself free rein to start with. If I end up with 200 words, or 400 words, and that's fine. I can cut it back. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard getting it into that number, or sometimes just like, well, I'm a 100 words over. The editor can figure it out. Decide what they like and don't like.

[00:16:45] YD: Yeah, definitely. Well, so you were working at Lonely Planet, and then you went freelance recently. How has that transition been for you? Because I know a lot of people listening to us, they're interested in perhaps, pursuing this a little bit more seriously going freelance, perhaps. Perhaps, even leaving their employment behind and going full-time into this. How was the transition for you?

[00:17:10] LK: The transition was tough, honestly. Going freelance is something I have thought about a lot and was very curious about. I wanted to do freelancing. Remote working and freelancing are two different things, but often get combined into the same one. I wanted to do both. I work and travel. I want to be traveling all the time. I don't want to home base. I want to be a digital nomad and go out and experience the world. I got to do that for six months. Then the pandemic started, and it was a little bit harder.

The transition, so it's often the case and working in-house at a publication. Times are tough in the industry. I decided to go freelance is somewhat a nice euphemism for I was laid off. My entire team was laid off. The company decided to restructure and we were all let go and our jobs were made redundant. Honestly, I don't know if I would have gone freelance without that kick in the butt to say, okay. It just felt like the universe was finally presenting me a chance, or maybe I had jinxed it in some way. It was like, I keep thinking about this. I keep thinking about this and not doing anything about it. It's like, all right. Well, now this in-house job is gone. What are you going to do?

That's not to say that I leaped into freelancing, because that was the option that was on the table for me at the time. I had some contacts, but not a whole lot. A few people have said to me when first dipping my toe into freelance world, it’s like, “Oh, you'll be fine. You know so many people from your job at Lonely Planet.” It's like, I don't know other editors. I know a lot of writers, because that's who I've worked with before. Being an editor, I don't know any other editors.

The transition was tough. It was slow going to start. Really relied on having a network and making connections with people who I had met through my work in-house at Lonely Planet. In a perverse way, one of the best things was that I was laid off with a group of 20 of my closest friends. All of the other editors were in the same position as me, so we could bounce ideas off each other, work on pitches together, work on job applications together. I really don't know what that transition would have been like without them. It would have been so much harder, and trying to go at it alone, I just think would be impossible.

That's not to say that getting into freelancing was easy. Once I found out that my team was being let go, I gave myself three months to find a salaried in-house job in London. I thought that's how long – London is one of the most expensive cities in the world. I adore it to the bottom of my heart and I really wanted to stay. Financially, I just couldn't figure out how to make it work without a salary job. Had a few interviews, but those didn't end up going anywhere. There was a decent amount of freelance work that was starting to come in. Yeah. I just felt pushed towards that path almost. I've now been doing that for about three years. I really enjoy it. I can't imagine trading it for anything. I shudder to think about going back into an office, or being tied to a 9 to 5. I've lucked out in the way that it's ended up for me, but it's taken – it's not an easy road.

[00:20:31] YD: God. I love that we're doing this interview, because I now even understand better why I'm so drawn to you. We have so many different things that – We have so many things that are similar experiences, similar tastes and stuff, because that was my experience as well, actually. When I made the transition into travel journalism, it was because my marketing job let me go. It was the same, right? Because I thought about it for so many years, but you're afraid to actually make that push. Then the universe is like, “Well, let me help you. Let me give you that kick.” I can totally relate to that. I cannot imagine working in an office anymore.

I'm so far gone, far down this road for the past six years that I can't imagine having a boss, who will tell me what to do every day, or showing up in an office and working in that structured environment. I agree with you, it's so hard, especially in the beginning. It's amazing that you had that system of support with the 20 friends of yours who are going through the same thing, because that's really, I found that to be one of the most important things, especially at the beginning, when you're still trying to get oriented, when you're trying to figure out who do you know, how to make it work, what pitches you need to write and all of that. Yeah, it's amazing that you had that.

How do you, I guess, the question then is, how do you develop that network of editors? You said, you didn't really know that many editors. You knew a lot of writers, but not necessarily editors. How do you get to know them? Where do you go? Or how do you develop that?

[00:22:07] LK: It's a tough one. It takes a lot of time. There are several ways. Being introduced by a fellow writer contact is always really good. If there's a project that someone passes on to you, because they think that they don't have time, or think you'd be better suited. Then just doing your absolute best work and showing the editor what you're capable of. Networking events, when those exist, I know they really went away during the pandemic, obviously. There used to be quite a few of those in London. Either meeting with tourism boards, or just happy hour drinks, that thing. Most of it is from other writer contacts and other friends who are doing freelancing in the same way that I am.

Sometimes it's even been editors passing on my information to other editors. It really depends, but I hate the word networking so much with just as an introvert and shy person, nothing terrifies me more than going into a room full of strangers and being like, “Hi, I'm Lauren. I'm doing this.” Oh, man. That's just my worst nightmare. But it leads to good things. It leads to connections and it's worth doing.

[00:23:23] YD: It is. It really is. You are reinforcing what I also believe, and I'm what I have come to know as the truth in this industry, but in many other industries as well is that at the end of the day, connections really matter. Who you who really matters. I stepped into this industry quite naively. I didn't know anyone. I was like, I don't need to know anyone. My work can speak for itself.

I wish that was really true. At the end of the day, it's not to say that editors will only work with who they know, or that that there is some favoritism. Although, sometimes that can also happen that editors get comfortable with working with the same writers again and again. I think, it's more just naturally human nature that we like to put the face to the name. We are more comfortable reaching out to someone with work, or with opportunities, somebody who we know, somebody who has a connection. I think, it's important and let this be a warning sign to anyone else who's listening today that don't be like me. Don't think that you can just do it on your own. You do need people. You do need connections. You do need to start reaching out and making those connections.

I also hate networking. I find it to be oftentimes – I'm not used to it. I come from a culture where it's not really a thing that you do. I always felt like, well, I don't want to boast about myself. I don't want to sell myself, so how do I make it naturally? I think, if it's more about your curiosity, your passion for travel, and you're there connecting with other people who are just as passionate about travel and storytelling and that curiosity, then I think it can be a nicer experience, I guess.

[00:25:05] LK: Exactly. It's an intimidating situation to start, but actually, the conversation is actually really easy. People are there because they can talk about travel for hours and you do. Even if nothing else comes out of it, except chatting about all of the previous trips you've taken, then yeah, you'd be surprised what comes out of that, actually.

[00:25:25] YD: Definitely. I'm wondering, you have this amazing body of work. Obviously, you’ve been working at Lonely Planet, but also been published there. Smithsonian Magazine, which we will link to. Atlas Obscura, AFAR, many other magazines as well. What would you say is the most misunderstood part of being a travel writer and on top of that, being a freelancer?

[00:25:47] LK: Ooh, that's such a good question. I battle this all the time talking to people who are not in this industry. The first part, we've touched on a little bit, where people think that it's like, this is vacation. Again, I'm not complaining about it. But it's work. It's very hard. It's time consuming. It drains your energy. It's in a beautiful, wonderful way, but it is something that you still have to go away and recharge from. The other part about being a travel writer is that you feel like you have to make a story out of everything that you're doing. I struggle with that sometimes.

Every single place you go, so I we were talking before I was just visiting a friend in New Mexico and it's like, “Oh, what story is this?” I drove there. Should I go through certain towns on this road trip down there? Should I do this? Should I do this? It's like, no. Just let it be. You don't have to write about absolutely everything. Sometimes it can feel like you're always working. It's not possible to switch off. Again, it's such a privilege to say something like that, which I appreciate. This is the industry and this is what it's like.

Freelancing is a very curious one. I find that a lot of people still don't know fully what that means. My parents basically don't think I have the job, or that I do any work, which I guess is true, in a way. But I am my own business. I am my own company. I have too much work. I've had way too much work for at least six months now. They just see me sitting at their kitchen table, staring at a computer, and they're just like, “Why aren’t you doing something today?” Or I'm like, “Oh, I'm going to a coffee shop. I'm doing work. I’m not just going to sit there.”

Yeah, I don't think freelancing is really understood that well. People assume you're just not working, even though, I mean, across so many industries, a lot of it is looking at a computer screen. Yet, when I –

[00:27:53] YD: You really do that in the office, so that counts.

[00:27:56] LK: Exactly. Yeah. If you're doing that at home, then it's not a job. It's like, okay, sure. Yeah. I think, that's the battle is convincing people. They're like, “Oh, what are you working on now? What are you doing?” No matter how many times I explain it, it's just – It doesn't seem to make a dent.

[00:28:13] YD: God, I can relate to that so well. What you said about not being able to turn off and always looking for stories. Yeah, I feel that pressure all the time. I haven't had a trip where I just went just to explore and just to be a traveler in such a long time. Even the last trip I did, which was like that, I was like, “No, I have to make a story out of it. I have to be efficient. I have to produce all these stories.”

I think it's actually a really important conversation to have that we need to have those moments where we just don't work. We're not there for a story. Were there for our own enjoyment, because then, how do you replenish that well of creativity, if you're not taking that time? I found that to be true for myself. When I'm traveling all the time, where I'm traveling on assignment and doing all these things, after a while I'm so burnt out. No new ideas are coming to me. It becomes so hard to be writing those stories. I just feel I need that time to replenish myself. It's so important not to get into that hole, really.

[00:29:18] LK: Yeah, absolutely. After this Egypt project, slightly different, but it's just such a big project. I was in Egypt for six weeks. Then probably back in writing non-stop for six weeks. 12 hours a day, seven days a week, because those were the deadlines and I had to – it was a book that hasn't been published since 2009. It was a little bit writing it from scratch. I've struggled with the work-life balance part of it for sure. Having a salaried job, I think, or an in-house job made that a little bit easier.

It's always something to remind myself of as well, and something that you – you get so far down that line, like you were saying that you're like, you don't get burnt out, or it's time to recharge. It's just about learning yourself and knowing when that point is coming and ideally being able to see a little bit further in advance, instead of arriving and being like, “Oh, no. This is it. I am done. I am so burnt out.” It takes time and it takes learning yourself and what your limits are and what you can handle.

[00:30:23] YD: Yeah. I think, the other really practical consideration of that is that when we're not working, we're not earning, right? That's the pressure that you – I am really bad at this, especially lately, so many projects that I'm working on, that I haven't taken weekends off in a while. In several months, at least, I've been working through the weekends. Literally yesterday, I was like, “Yulia, I think you need to take this afternoon off, because yeah, you're reaching that point where you're going to be burned out pretty quickly.” I think, that's the rub, really, as a freelancer, as someone who works for yourself, and you don't have that salary is that we have this pressure that if we're not working, we're not earning.

Then on the flip side, figuring out, well, what can you do, so that when you're not working, you're still earning? That's a whole other conversation. We'll touch on it in the podcast in upcoming episodes as well. I'm curious to get your thoughts on that.

[00:31:17] LK: Yeah, exactly. It's such an interesting one with freelancing. The saying is always, it's feast or famine. There's always too much work, or not enough/zero work. I've been lucky enough for these last few months that it's been a feast. It's still hard on that side of things, because it's like, okay, I don't know when these jobs will end. They could end tomorrow, and then that's it. I'm going to spend as much time as I can working on them right now. Then if they're like, okay, this project is done in two weeks, then it's like, okay, I've gotten as much experience and money out of this as I could. That's it, and on to finding new things.

Then it's like, “Ah. Well, this hasn't ended yet.” Then other stuff is coming in. It's all in the balance, and it will work itself out. It's definitely something you have to actively manage and figure out for yourself what works.

[00:32:18] YD: Yeah, for sure. Well, I'm curious then, sounds like we're both very much on the same page when it comes to we love travel, and we're passionate about doing this work remotely, and not coming back to the office. How did you first became a travel writer? How did you know that? This is what you wanted to do? Was it like, from the beginning, you're like, “I'm going to be a travel writer when I grow up,” or how did that happen for you?

[00:32:43] LK: Not at all. It was a long and strange road. I'm from the middle of the US, a very standard, generic place that not a lot of people visit. Growing up, my family didn't really travel. I didn't know anyone who traveled, really, besides people who went to Disney World every year. That just wasn't really part of it. I almost think that that had an advantage in a way, because not an advantage necessarily, but put me on that, it's like, okay, I haven't been anywhere, but I know there's a big world out there. Let's go do it. A lot of people around me were like, “What? No. No, thanks.”

I studied journalism in college. That was in the depths of the Great Recession of 2008-2009. My dream job through high, school through college was to be an editor at a newspaper. Then I had a shocking realization after actually doing that job as part of an internship. I was like, “Oh, my God. This is terrible. This job is terrible.” You go in at as a copy editor. Your work late night shift. You go in at 4 p.m. You leave when the newspaper is printed, which is probably midnight, or 1. The newspaper comes out every day. Your weekends might be, or your two days off might be Tuesday and Wednesday.

It dawned on me all of a sudden, and I don't know why it took that long. It's like, how do you have friends if you're working like this? Your only friends are the other people in the newsroom who are there with you. I love that aspect of it so much. I still love the editing side of things and that's what I spend a lot of my time doing. I have so much love and appreciation for people who make it as full-time freelance writers, because that is not me and not something I could ever do.

I love the background side of it more, the editing, the reading, the project management side of it. Sometimes I'll get these big ideas that I'm like, “Oh, I really want to write this and I want to make this happen, so I do.” The process of writing actually gives me a lot of anxiety. It feels like, I don't know, pulling my heart out and putting it down on a page, which I know is so dramatic. Some of the stuff I write is just top 10 lists and things like that. I’m like, “Who knows? Maybe this is going to win the Pulitzer Prize. No, I don’t. I don't think it is.”

I always want to put as much of myself in something as I can. Writing for me is a very emotional and energy-intensive process and I can't do it very often. I just haven't been trained in that way. That's why I prefer – and not even prefer exactly, but glad to have as the vast majority of my work and my time is actually spent editing, instead of writing.

[00:35:45] YD: I love that you're putting that fine point on this, because we talk with a lot of writers and photographers on the podcast. We have had interviews with editors as well, but I just really love going deeper into this distinction between the skills required for an editing profession, versus a writing one. By the way, most writers I speak to myself included, we feel the same way that is like putting your heart out onto a page. It's really personal.

Regardless of what you're writing, my process, and I've shared this on the podcast before, but my process is the very first draft, it's really hard to put it on a page for me. It's so hard. The words are coming out so hard. What I've learned to do is I've learned to life hack, or hack my way into it with this process where I wake up really early at 4 a.m., 5 a.m., which is way earlier than usual. Before even having coffee or brushing my teeth, I sit down in front of a laptop, I put a song on on repeat, the same song on repeat, and I just put everything I know about the story on the page. It takes me about an hour and it's like, everything comes out. Because at that point, your brain is not completely awake yet, so you're entering this flow state.

Then later on afternoon, I'm more sharp, whatever, that's when I'm editing. I can edit three, four, five, 10 times sometime and painstakingly about every single word that's there, and you read it and reread it. Like you said, there's so much care that goes into these words and sentences that are the top 10 beaches, or whatever project. What I'm saying is don't worry, I think we're all feeling the same way about this process.

[00:37:30] LK: I would actually love, I don't know, some, I don't know, podcast series that you could do next is what people's writing process is. Because that is utterly fascinating. Just to hear that before you do it, before you get up and do anything to get your day started, you sit down and write. I love that so much. My process is not even a process. Something that should take me one day to write. I don't know. I call that about a 1,000 words, because I don't think I have more than that in me per day. Something like, okay, it'll take me a day to write a 1,000 words, but I needed the day before to freak out about it.

I sit there and complain to myself, and I'm like, I don't know why I signed up to do this. It's almost the stages of grief in a way, where it's – You're angry at yourself for doing it, then it's – I can't remember all of them, but the resignation and then the imposter syndrome sets in. This isn't my story to tell, and why am I the one doing this? At the end of the day, all I hope to produce out of that amount of time is an outline of the story. In an ideal world, the introduction would be there. At least, the bullet point outlines, maybe a few notes, like what you were saying like, just get down absolutely everything you can, even if it's not in complete sentences, or the phrasing that you end up using. At least all of the ideas are out of your head and onto the paper.

Some writers I've talked to, the introduction is always the hardest part, right? Because it's what has to hook the reader immediately and has to be your probably best written paragraph of the entire thing. Some writers say, “Oh, I skip the introduction to start and then write the rest of it, and then come back to that at the very end.” I'm like, I can't. I can't do that. The introduction, it tells me where the piece is going, even though – you know that you have the general outline in your head, but I just don't feel like I can flow and move on until that introduction is written. That will take me hours and hours. Then once that's done, the rest of it will come a little bit more naturally. I envy the people who can just skip that, move on and then come back to it later.

[00:39:42] YD: Oh, my God. I love hearing your process. By the way, I think for me the opening paragraph and also the closing sentence, the last sentence of the piece is like, you seal the deal with it. I love your closing sentence in the Hegra story. Again, this is a invitation for everyone listening to check out this beautiful story that Lauren wrote, that we're referencing throughout today. Something you said about your process. Two things stood out to me. One is imposter syndrome.

Wow, guys. Listen to this. Lauren Keith, who is this established writer and editor, she has been published in all these places, she's worked in all these places, she goes through imposter syndrome, too, just like do all of us. We talk about impostor syndrome so much also in our membership and in this podcast. It's something that all of us deal with. How amazing. Honestly, it's amazing for me to hear that you deal with this too, because then it really tells me that, okay, it's not a real thing, right? The voice that tells me, it's not my story to tell, who am I? What am I doing? Why did I say yes to this? It's not a real voice. Because that voice is not just mine. That voice shows up in every head that's trying to do something amazing, right? How beautiful it is to realize that.

[00:40:57] LK: Exactly. It's so true. I haven't come to the full strategy as to what really works to even make that voice a little bit quieter sometimes. When I start to ask myself those questions of why are you doing this? Why are you the person? Who are you? You're writing about Saudi Arabia, and you're from Kansas. You're from nowhere? Who are you? This is my passion. This is a story that hasn't been told yet.

We all as writers have our own different types of audiences. If only 50 people read this story, then maybe I've convinced one person out of those 50 to travel to Saudi Arabia, or to learn about the Nabataeans, or to awaken something in them that they're more interested in. I think that's what it all boils down to, at the end of the day, is that this is my passion and this is what I get to do. There's nothing wrong with me telling this story. I'm sure you've had it as well. It can be challenging in certain places in the world, in the Middle East. There are story ideas that I've had, or heard of and have backed away from, because I'm just like, “I love this story idea. I just don't think it's my story to tell. I would love to, but I think an Arab journalist, or an Arab woman journalist should be the one telling that instead of me.”

[00:42:24] YD: Yeah. This is such a fine balance to walk, or fine line to walk, that nuance of knowing where it is your story and it's really just your imposter syndrome telling you it’s not – and where it's really not your story to tell, right? There is nuance in that. I think, that also with experience, you get better at figuring out which of the two you're looking at here. I agree. I go through that process all the time, too. Is this my story or not? I love how you brought it back your passion. You're writing about something you're passionate about. The way I put it always is what gives you the mandate to do this job?

Well, this is the answer. This is one of the answers. It's my passion about the Nabataeans. This is my passion about archaeology, or history. It's the story that hasn't been told yet. I just really love that insight. For our listeners, also to take note of that when you are struggling and when you're hearing those voices, again, try to bring it back to that question. This is my passion that I'm writing about. That's why it's so important to always bring it back to that.

Oh, actually, and the last thing that I just wanted to tease out from what you said is that the importance of knowing yourself and your process; so if you know if that you have a story of 1,000 words that's due next Friday, you know that you need two days. One of them will be the freakout day and the outline day, and the other one would be the day to write. How important is to know to have that knowledge, because now you can manage that. Hopefully, that also helps us be a little bit more useful next time we're writing another story, because now you know, this is my process. This is what I go through. I always say that it's really important that you know how it is that your process works, because then you can manage it and you can prepare for that and hopefully, plan for them better.

[00:44:12] LK: Yeah, exactly. It takes time to know that. It's not just something that you realize. Only when those deadlines stack up, or you spend too long in the freakout process, instead of the actual writing process. It's something, as you were saying, you get to know yourself over time and it's like, okay, we've done this before. It's a mental preparation exercise to some extent, but it's not something that even I don't think unveils itself clearly and obviously, even the first few times you do it. It takes time.

Even if I know that day of freaking out and negative self-talk and imposter syndrome is stupid, I know it's stupid, and yet, it has to happen every single time. You just have to learn to give yourself that grace and that time and say, this is part of the whole thing. There will be a finished, beautiful piece at the end of it and this is what it takes to get there. That's okay.

[00:45:13] YD: Oh, I love that. I love that so much. I love that so much. That's so true. You know what I've noticed? I've noticed that since I started doing work on becoming better at understanding what impostor syndrome is, how it affects me, but also, understanding my skills better. Looking at my experiences, looking at my accomplishments, acknowledging them, celebrating them, because we also don't do that enough, I believe, my imposter syndrome episodes are happening less frequently now.

They're still there, for sure. I think, like you said, they're always going to be there to some extent, but they're not as, let's say, debilitating as they used to be. I recover from them quicker now, too. I recognize that as, “Oh, yeah. That's my imposter syndrome speaking.” Let it wash over you, but let's keep going anyway and let's keep doing scarier and scarier things, which is so exciting also.

[00:46:04] LK: Exactly. Getting over impostor syndrome is a skill in and of itself. It's something that takes practice and effort. It's an uncomfortable place to be. No one wants to be there in the depths of it. As you were saying, as you keep doing it and putting yourself in those situations, the time that it takes to get through it decreases. Maybe not ever to zero, but it does get smaller.

[00:46:30] YD: Yeah. Oh, I love that. Let's shift gears a little bit. I'm also looking at the time and I'm like, “How is it that we're almost an hour in? What? I still haven't asked you so many questions I wanted to ask you.” I wanted to ask you a little bit more about, so in this career in your path, you've had to look at a lot of pitches, I imagine. Because you were a commissioning editor at Lonely Planet. Even as I understand it with your freelancing projects, now you're commissioning pitches and stories, too. I know this is a very broad question, because it will depend on what exactly you're looking for, what kind of projects. In broad terms, what do you look for in a pitch?

[00:47:12] LK: First and foremost, that the person has followed the instructions that I set out in the call for pitches. If I've asked for two clips, or a whole portfolio, or an introduction to – a little bit about themselves and their experience in this place, you'd be really shocked at how many people don't actually follow those basic instructions. I used to be very nice and wrote back and said, “Ah, this isn't quite what I was looking for. Try again.” Now I've gotten a little bit more cutthroat after years of doing this. Just like, “No.” Straight to the trash. Not dealing with this.

[00:47:50] YD: Hey, sorry. Can we pause here for a second? Because this is really important, you guys, what we just heard from Lauren. I talk about this all the time, too. If your pitch doesn't quickly get to the point of what it needs to do, it's going to go to the trash. This is just the reality. Not because Lauren is some a bad person, but because Lauren has a lot of things to do. She has a lot on her plate. She gets so many pitches come in, I imagine on a regular basis. I talk about this all the time, too. Look at the guidelines, like the pitching guidelines. Look at the instructions and the call for pitches. It's really important to follow that. I agree with you, many people don't. That's really important.

[00:48:31] LK: Definitely. The shorter the pitch, the better. Some editors might disagree with that. Obviously, it will depend on the publication as well. If you can't sum up the idea for your story in a couple of sentences, then you're probably not quite there yet with what the story needs to be. I wouldn't say a specific word count exactly, but maybe 150, or 200 words. If you've met all of the things that the editor has asked for in their call for pitches and been able to sum up your story in a few sentences, that should do it. You don't need to go into super elaborate details.

You might not even need to call out the specific things, or places that you're going to highlight within the story, but just say, “Here is my idea.” Then if the editor does want more information and they're intrigued by those few sentences, then they'll ask for more and that's fine and you can provide it at that point. Yeah, do field a lot of pitches. I as an editor, I try to give everyone a chance. If someone doesn't have big name publications behind them, that is absolutely fine. I know what it was like to start with nothing. To just be writing on a blog, or for friends, or, “Oh, I have clips from my high school, or college newspaper about something that's completely irrelevant to what I'm writing about now.” That's okay.

I think, it's just your style and your personality and attitude, actually play a really big part in it. If someone is difficult – if a writer is difficult to work with, but they're an excellent writer, I don't care. I don't want to work with them. It's much easier to work with someone who maybe isn't as strong of a writer, but who is willing to learn and willing to take edits and feedback and go through that process. Yeah, I wish more editors would do that to just – to give people a chance.

On the other hand, I have been burned a million times over through various – just many, many, many rounds of edits, or even writers who have written for bigger publications and have some strong clips behind them. You realize that there's actually a lot of editing that went into that, and maybe the original submission wasn't quite as strong. Again, it's another skill that you learn over time, and through fielding and working with pitches and writers. You learn to look out for certain things. Yeah. I do my best to give a lot of people a chance to get them that foot in the door, because everyone needs that.

[00:51:05] YD: Oh, I love that. I'm so glad that you said that, Lauren. I hope everyone listening now paid attention to that as well. Because it's funny how you're reinforcing all the points that I always talk about as well. One of them is a lot of – because in the travel Media Lab community, in the membership, but also in the broader community, a lot of people are interested, but a lot of people are not pitching, are not reaching out, because they're like, “Well, I don't have any clips. I don't have any portfolio.” It’s a catch-22. You need to start pitching to start building the portfolio. How do you do that?

What I always say to them is that if you do your homework, if you go through the guidelines and instructions, if you follow that, and by the way, a lot of publications are now putting their instructions up online. It's much easier than when I was starting six years ago. That wasn't happening. If you do that, and you have a great idea that fits with this publication, or with this call for pitches, an editor worth their salt, and that's my really, my big conviction that an editor worth their salt is not going to turn somebody away, because they don't have a big-name publication in their portfolio, if the idea is great and if it fits. Wouldn't you agree?

[00:52:15] LK: Absolutely. Clips are like, it's an added bonus, but not the end all be all. If the idea is solid, that's what matters. That's the result at the end of the day. It doesn't matter what you've done for other publications. This is its own contained article. This is its own small project. While it matters what you have done previously and who else you've worked with, it's not a 100% of the deal.

[00:52:41] YD: It's giving me goosebumps. I love that. That's really wonderful. Oh, I'm so glad that we talked about this, because this is really a big barrier for a lot of people. Unless you start pitching, again, it's that catch-22. You're not going to be able to progress. Because how do we get better? We get better by doing the work. My original pitches, my original from my first couple of years in this path, I look at them now and I'm like, “Oh, I wrote that?” You improve through doing the work, and so it's so important that you start doing that.

[00:53:11] LK: Absolutely. One of my favorite things that I've ever read and I'm going to misquote. I will not quote it exactly correct, but it was something that Cheryl Strayed wrote. She was the author of Wild and a few other books. She has that, “Write like a motherfucker.” That just always sticks with me. There was a part in those series of articles, and it ties back into imposter syndrome as well, where she talks about practicing writing, and it's like doing sets and repetitions. It's a muscle that you exercise. Then she compares writing as a job, as a career to being a coal miner. She says something like, “Do you think the coal miner goes into the mine and just stands there is like, “Oh, I don't know. What am I doing here?” It's like, no. The miner just digs. You start digging and you get there.” I think, just repeating that to myself in my head is dig. You start going. The only way to get to the end is to start.

[00:54:12] YD: I love that. Oh, my God. That is awesome. Yeah, we are. We are like miners in some cases. That's true. We dig. It's interesting. Listen, we could probably have a whole conversation on, like you said, the writing process and the intricacies of that, because it's interesting how this works. Sometimes it is that hard. It's like pulling teeth. It's like you're digging through this mess to get to the other side. Sometimes I do feel I almost enter some highway and words just flow out of me. They're just been given to me from somewhere and they just come out. It's so interesting how sometimes that happens, too.

[00:54:52] LK: Yeah, absolutely. That's the ideal to reach. Maybe you have to do a little bit of digging to get there and then it comes. It's different for every piece I find. Some are being on that highway, and some are standing in the cave. You never quite know how it's going to go, but it's always a process.

[00:55:13] YD: Yeah, definitely. Well then, to close on that loop then, what would you say to someone who is maybe interested in writing, or pitching Lonely Planet, or pitching AFAR, or pitching any of these other publications and doesn't have this big portfolio to start with? If there's one thing you could tell them, what would you tell them?

[00:55:33] LK: Go out in the world. Read, write. These are the things that it takes to be a writer is to know other people's work to see what's happening around you, to be curious about what's happening around you. It takes time. Just because an editor doesn't respond to you, or that your pitch gets rejected, that doesn't mean that the idea is bad at all. It just means that it's not a fit for that publication. I think, all of us, no matter how long we've been writers, or in this industry at all have at least a handful, or maybe even a bank of ideas that it's like, “Well, I don't have the right home for this yet. Or it's been rejected from five places, and I don't know where to put it yet.” All of that stuff will find a home. Maybe that home ends up being your blog, or a self-published book, or something like that, that doesn't make it lesser at all. Every idea, if you're passionate enough about it, will find a home. Because that's the story that you want to tell and you should tell it.

[00:56:38] YD: Oh, I love that. I love that so much, Lauren. That is so beautiful. I'm actually surprised that we haven't even touched on rejection up until now. Because what you make part of this process, like getting rejections. That's another thing that really stops a lot of people, because they are – not only they are worrying about the portfolio that they don't have, but they're also worrying about getting a rejection. I always also say that it's such a normal part of this process, and there is nothing to be afraid of, because all it means is that at this time for this particular editor, for this particular publication, this idea is not a fit. The problem is that we often internalize it as, “Oh, you're no good, or your ideas are no good.”

[00:57:18] LK: Absolutely. I think, a lot of freelancing, or a lot of being a writer in any capacity is developing a slightly thicker skin. But I'm not going to lie. Anytime I get a rejection, it hurts. I have to mope about it for the best part of the day. Exactly. It's learning. It's not taking it personally.

The other part of that as well is and the phrasing that I always tell myself is that don't censor yourself. If you haven't sent the idea, you don't know how the editor is going to respond. You have no clue. Maybe they'll accept it within 10 minutes. Let them be the gatekeeper, because that is their job and their role. Don't censor yourself because you think something might happen. You have no idea what's going to happen. It could be your big break into the publication that you've always wanted, but you don't know, “Oh, it sounds so cliche.” You don't know unless you try. It's true. Don't censor yourself.

[00:58:11] YD: It's so true. It is so true. Oh, my God, you've already given us so many amazing wisdom today. I love it. Don't censor yourself, guys. I think I might take that one on and keep repeating that one, because we do. That's all these barriers that we have in our own head about what's going to happen, what's not going to happen. We stop short of actually doing something, and that's the most important thing we could do. Oh, my God. I love this. We're going to start wrapping up. Before we do, I wanted to ask you, what is something that you're working on right now that you're most excited about?

[00:58:44] LK: I’m in a middle phase right now. I've submitted all of my stuff for the Egypt guidebook within the last month. I'm getting a few edits back, here and there. We're talking a little bit before about trying to figure out the work-life balance. There are some story ideas that I have, that are bigger pieces that I really want to do, that will require a lot of time and research and visiting different places that I haven't been to yet. I'm trying to figure out how to carve out that time for myself, and give myself that time and that space to do these bigger stories that I want to do.

Like I was saying before, I don't actually write that often. When I do, I want it to be those big pieces that have been – that the seeds have been in my head for a while, and I just haven't had the time yet to do anything about them. I'm hoping in the next few weeks maybe to, I don't know, figure out how to give myself the time and space and make sure I have the energy to do it, because I think – sending out pitches is also something that I find very energy intensive and a little bit draining. Because essentially, like I was saying before, you need to be able to sum up your story in two or three sentences. To be able to get to that point is a lot of time and research that goes into that process already.

Yeah, it's just sitting down and giving myself the time to do that. I'm sure that doesn't actually sound very exciting and maybe a little bit nebulous, but that's something that I've struggled with is that balance. I really want to figure out how I can spend more time working on those passion projects of mine, and put the regular steady work, as steady as it is at the moment anyway, a little bit to the side and decrease that while giving myself more time to spend writing.

[01:00:37] YD: I recognize that struggle in that process very well. I appreciate that. No, I can relate to that. How can people find you, or if they want to stay connected with you, stay connected with your projects, what you have going on, your travels?

[01:00:52] LK: Probably, the best way is on Instagram. My username is @noplacelike_it. I'm usually posting what I'm up to on there. I don't use too many other social media platforms. I've gotten quite a few messages from random people, especially when I was in Egypt, really enjoying the photos and really liking those. Yeah, come say hi.

[01:01:12] YD: Okay. Awesome. Good. We will close this amazing conversation that I want to keep going with, but we have to close it and maybe we'll have you on again at some point, because I feel like we just scratched the surface on most of these. We will close with the question that I often close with, which is – and it's a big one. Maybe how would you start thinking about it? What does it mean to be a woman in travel, who is stepping into her brilliance today?

[01:01:41] LK: That is a big question. I mean, there are lots of pieces of the conversation that we've just had that tie back into it. I think, the one, the final piece I'm going to go with is that don't censor yourself. Women are always, are often taught to be in the background and be quiet and don't disrupt anything. That's not at all our place. We should be out there doing as we please and as we want. Don't let other people put you in that position definitely, but don't let yourself put yourself there either. It's our job to break out and to find that brilliance and to follow those passions. We have the ability to do it. Don't tell yourself no if that's what you want to do.

[01:02:24] YD: Lauren, that is a beautiful way to end our conversation today. Thank you so much for coming. I enjoyed it immensely.

[01:02:32] LK: So did I. You’re so welcome.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[01:02:36] YD: Thank you so much for listening today. I hope you enjoyed the conversation we had with Lauren. If so, I want to ask you to please take a minute to support our show. You can do that very simply right now by leaving us a rating or review on the Apple Podcast app, or by sharing this episode with your friends, loved, ones posting about it on social media. It really helps us to get discovered by more listeners that would find our show helpful. It means so much to me. I read every single review we get and I take them very seriously, because I want to create a great show for all of you.

If you've been inspired by something you heard today in our conversation with Lauren, or in any other episodes of our show, please take just a minute right now to support it by leaving us a rating or review. That is one of the best ways you can help us out.

I want to remind you that our two-day workshop series called Getting Started in NFTs is almost here. The two workshops will be on August 10 and 17th. In that time, we're going to cover all the basics you need to know to get started in that space yourself. Check out the link in our show notes, or go to our homepage, travelmedialab.com. If you're considering joining us, you still got time, because we start on August 10th.

Thanks again for listening, and I'll see you next week.

[END]