S7 E77: Writing for Condé Nast Traveler with Travel Writer Ashley Brooks (Re-Release)

Get the show’s transcript

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:00] YD: Welcome to the Travel Media Lab podcast. I'm your host, Yulia Denisyuk, an award-winning travel photographer and writer, entrepreneur, community builder, and a firm believer that every one of us can go after the stories we've always wanted to tell, with the right support, encouragement, and structure. I'm on a mission to help women storytellers everywhere break into and thrive in the travel media space.

If you're ready to ditch your fears to the side, grow your knowledge and confidence, and publish your travel stories. You're in the right place. Let's go. 

[EPISODE]

[00:00:37] YD: Hi everyone. Welcome back to the podcast, and today I'm really excited to share with you an episode with did with Ashley Brooks, a culture and travel writer, and our very own Travel Media Lab community member.

We're very lucky to have Ashley as part of our community because her thoughtfulness, dedication to this craft and support for our members have been just so wonderful.  It's also been incredible to witness Ashley's journey from the time she first took our program to where she is today.  And in this episode we dig into what it takes to get your story published at Conde Nast Traveler.

Because since taking our program and joining our membership, Ashley has published her work in places like, Condé Nast Traveler, like Shondaland, Huffington Post, and I just had so much fun talking to Ashley, and I hope you enjoyed this episode.  Now, in this episode, we're also covering what sets our program apart and how it can help you get your stories published.

And just a reminder that I'll be doing a free info session this week on Friday, November 18th at 11:00 AM Eastern, and we start enrolling for the program next week. So if you wanna know more about everything Intro to Travel Journalism program related, don't wait.  Visit the link in the show notes or go to travelmedialab.com/infosession to register today.

All right, now onto this episode.  

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:59] YD: Alright. Welcome back to the podcast, everyone. Today on the podcast, we have a very special person, a wonderful now friend of mine that I had the pleasure of meeting in Texas earlier this year during one of our workshops. We have Ashley Brooks. Ashley is a culture and travel writer. Sounds amazing, based out of Florida. Her trials have included the circuit trails of the Himalayas, the monasteries of Sri Lanka, the castles of Scotland, and the street cafes of Paris. Her work can now be found and publications such as Condé Nast Traveler, The Huffington Post, and Shondaland. Welcome, Ashley. I'm just so excited about that last line of your introduction.

[00:02:50] AB: Thank you so much, Yulia. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:52] YD: Amazing. If you guys have listened to the podcast for a while, you might recognize Ashley's voice. She's been on the podcast before, but not in the individual interview structure. Ashley is also our Travel Journalism Masterclass students. The very first one, the very first iteration of the class that I did, Ashley was there, which is really incredible. She's also a very active and supportive member of The Circle, which is our membership. Today, I am really excited to talk to Ashley, to you about your progression in the space. 

Some of the things that you've been able to accomplish and realize and learn in the past two years now, I guess, a year and a half. Also, get your take on what this journey looks like for perhaps some of our listeners who are interested in this career path as well. Again, welcome, Ashley, very excited to have you on the podcast today.

[00:03:49] AB: Thanks, Yulia. Thanks for having me.

[00:03:51] YD: Let's start here, a creative career, right? A photographer, a writer career is a very aspirational, but also very intimidating and scary path that can still seem like it's out of reach for many people. I'm curious, when or how did know that you wanted to be a writer, a published writer?

[00:04:15] AB: I've always wanted to be a writer. I made little books and wrote stories when I was a kid. For years, I just would write on my own, locked away in my little spare bedroom and never do anything with it, never showed it to anybody. It was during the lockdown. I came across or maybe just after. I'm not quite sure of our timing. I know it's 2020. I came across you on Instagram and I saw the course and it just your ad had a little ticker. It had a little countdown to when you could sign up for it. I remember going and I think it was three days before and then it was two days before. Then I just kept checking it. So I was like, clearly I want to do this. So I signed up and it just gave me something positive to do while we were all a little bit stationary. 

Even when I signed up, I don't really know if I really felt it was going to make a difference, but I just wanted something positive to focus on. Then once I was in the class and everything was being laid out, it just started to feel possible. I could see the path from, because I mean, for those of you guys listening, the class is all about pitching, right? You can write all day long in your little spare bedroom, but if you don't know who to send it to or how to send it to someone, it won't get published. Yeah, so that was what got me there.

[00:05:39] YD: Yeah. I love that you said that, Ashley. Actually, it shows that you're in our community because you know, this is what I say all the time, right? It's action. That is the most important thing we can do, like you said, we can write, we can do things on our own, creating these stories and everything, but unless we send them out for other people to see, nothing is going to happen. So action is one of the most important parts of this journey. I'm just so glad that you feel the same way now. I also often say in the podcast or in other spaces as well that, one of the biggest things that stops us from taking that action that we want, are fears.

We are afraid. We are afraid that we are perhaps not good enough, that perhaps we don't know enough or don't have what it takes or are not accredited enough. We haven't studied creative writing in the university. I also know and I've seen this happen in our community, that's when we start sharing some of those fears and start talking about them openly. It's also cathartic, because we realize that, “Oh, she's also having that same doubts or that same concern.” Which means that, well, for me at least, it means that there is nothing wrong with me. It's normal to have these fears. We all have them. Perhaps we've been conditioned to have them, so let's share them. I'm curious, if you'll be open to sharing some of the concerns or not own concerns, some of the doubts, some of the fears that you had at the beginning of this journey.

[00:07:12] AB: Sure. I mean, to be honest, I can tick a lot of boxes that you just offered up. I don't have a degree in creative writing. I have a two-year degree. I don't have a bachelor's degree, which is something that let hold me back, for sure. I was self-conscious about that. My job has nothing to do with writing. I own a small, tiny little boutique pilates studio, and I've done that for years. So it feels very outside of the realm of writing, photography, magazines, anything like that. Not only that, I would say I definitely was dealing with those fears and doubts about myself and just not feeling I could place myself in that arena, but even more so just feeling completely lost as to how to even start.

Even if I would have felt like, “Oh yeah, I can do it.” I wouldn't have known where to start or how to start. It was for me a combination of both of those things, just feeling very lost in the weeds and just not even knowing how to start. Then like you said, a lot of those self-doubts even prevented me from trying. I would agree with you that that is one of the biggest things I've taken away from the group. I mean, we're all so different. We come from all over the place. We have different backgrounds and it just takes that. This sounds a little bit harsh, but it takes that excuse away because it's not an excuse anymore for me to say, “Oh, I don't have this, or I'm not that.” Or it's like, “Well, there's lots of different people doing this and they all look different.” So there's no reason to not do it.

[00:08:41] YD: Yeah. Oh, my God. I think you just literally touched upon all of the pillars, all of the pillars on which I try to structure our work inside Travel Media Lab with like, but all the different projects that we do, because it's actually not, not rocket science in the sense that once you put the right conditions, once you put somebody in the right conditions, and this is something I've learned from entrepreneurship, by the way, when I was helping out with a project years ago of Entrepreneur, like teaching people how to become entrepreneurs and what are the right conditions that exist for that.

When you put somebody in those right conditions, most of the time people thrive, it’s just so incredible. So what are those conditions? It's knowledge, right? It's giving you the right knowledge, tips, advice, basic foundational knowledge of this new space that you're entering. It's giving you the support, the continuous support, because knowledge on its own is actually not enough. We're going to get to it in a little bit, because that's also a reason why our class is changing this time around. So knowledge and support and then the third pillar is you surround yourself with people who are different from you, because like you said, you're all coming from different backgrounds, but at the same time, you're all united by a similar aspiration.

You all want to create something. You want to see your work out there, you want to see your work recognized, acknowledged, published in different capacity and that is extremely powerful, because like you said, you see, oh, I have this person who is, has a completely different life path than me, but yet has the same aspiration. I see her going out there and pitching and asking questions and doing this and it gives me more motivation to do that as well, wouldn't they?

[00:10:26] AB: I totally agree. Yeah, for sure and I think I might have even said this the last time that we chat on the podcast, but joining groups like this is not normally my, it's out of my comfort zone, let's say that. I tend to do things more just on my own in a singular way. That's something that's been, I guess, a life lesson for me, not just from the writing or whatever, but there is, I can’t remember how you just said it, but there's a power of with surrounding yourself with people with the similar goal like it does. It's just a current that keeps you can go in a little bit. There's been more than once in the last 18 months that I have been feeling stuck or it just, no pitches were coming back for a moment or whatever. It was literally the group and people that I knew were keeping me accountable a little bit, that kept me going.

[00:11:17] YD: Yeah. That's really powerful. That's also a reason why it is difficult for people to stay on this path, because for the most part we want maybe not instant gratification, but we want some sign let's say, right to that, “Hey, I'm on the right path, I'm on the right path.” It's normal. It's really normal for people to feel this way. So when you're sending your pitches out there and you're not getting that result that you want in a while, well, for many people, that means they're going to be falling out, because they see no – what's the word? They see no outcome from their efforts.

[00:11:51] AB: Right.

[00:11:51] YD: In a reasonable timeframe. Although reasonable this definition is different for all, but then they fall out so that's where that group becomes super important. Because I know and I see these messages from you guys all the time, it's like, “Hey, no, pitches came back this week or I haven't heard back from such and such.” When you see that you're all going through the same process, it makes it easier to keep going, because you're also all encouraging each other, and you're also all extremely, amazingly celebrating each other when you do get a pitch back with a yes, and when you do get that article published. That is really important.

I would say that for me now, being in this career for six years or whatever, I see that as probably the most important element to succeeding and to thriving in this career. That element of I'm not alone in this. When it's hard, somebody is there to encourage me, to support me, and to ensure that I'll keep going. I guess, what are you trying to – or what were you hoping to accomplish when you were thinking about joining our initial pitch class? I know you mentioned that you were looking for a distraction from the pandemic and something positive to do. Did you actually imagine yourself being published or was that not something that you were thinking about at that time?

[00:13:11] AB: I mean, I think I did think about it, sure. I had taken the year before, I had taken a live workshop from a writer who had come to a local art center. He had, it was a daylong workshop. He had spent a lot of the day talking about, he kept using the term pitching, and to be honest, I was sitting there. I didn't know what he was talking about. I just thought, I don't understand. Even once I got home and researched it, it was same thing, I just was well, “Gosh, do I just–“ I just didn't understand. So then when I saw your ad, I think that was the first thing that struck me was oh, this is going to show me this thing that I don't understand yet. So that, I think, was really my initial, I don't know that I let myself think much beyond that. Just I have this thing I'm frustrated by. I don't understand. This seems like a good way to learn it.

[00:13:58] YD: The whole pitching process, really, the mechanics of what do you actually do and how do you find the right publications and how do you ensure that your pitch actually makes sense for that publication, that whole basically process? Yeah, I love that you said that because that's literally what we focus on in the class. I mean, we wrap it around the foundation and we actually start in a very unexpected place, right? We start with dream visualization in the class, but the focal point and the outcome that I want everybody to come out on the other end is to have a pitch and to actually send it out. To demystify this whole process basically. 

I'm glad that you're bringing this up. What I wanted to get into now is that this year, so this class is going to be, I think, in its third or fourth iteration, and this year we're doing something different with it. I mentioned that a little bit to you before we start recording, but basically in the past when people had signed up for our class, people like you, let's say, they would have the class as its own container within a certain time frame. Then that's it, basically, they had the class. They went through this process and that's it, then I also had the membership, which I was inviting people separately, just anyone can come and join the membership. 

What I am doing differently this year is that we're turning the class into a six-month program, that's going to include those six months inside The Circle or membership. So for whoever is joining the class, they're going to get the best of those pillars that I mentioned earlier. They're going to get the knowledge of the industry, of how to pitch, of all the different dynamics that exist in it. They're also going to get that support, and that structure, and that community that we have going on in the circle because that's what's going to, I believe that's what's going to deliver the best results for them, because simply they're going to stick to it, they're going to stick to it for those six months.

What I'm seeing with people is that, we have our students, we've had several cohorts of students now, and for most of them even the best-case scenario where they go through all the modules, they take on all of the knowledge that I offer in the class, it is so hard to keep going after that. When you're doing that on your own, when you don't have, again, that community, that structure where you're not seeing people every single week, week in and week out, checking in with each other on Zoom calls and in our WhatsApp group and saying, “Hey, what about this? What about this? How we pitched here?” “Hey, there is this Time magazine opportunity, don't miss it.” “Hey, apply here. Do this.” Right? Like you said, it keeps you – 

[00:16:39] AB: Current, it just keeps you moving.

[00:16:41] YD: Exactly. Looking back then for you, and I love that we're talking about this because you now have experience with both. You have experience with the class and you have experience with the membership as well. What would you say was the most impactful element for either of those experiences for you?

[00:17:00] AB: I mean, I would say, I don't know if you're asking me to compare the two, because you said, they're both, they're different things. One is knowledge. One is more support. To me, I think it makes a lot of sense to combine them, because even myself at the end of the class, when I ended that first initial class, I think that was a few months before The Circle started. At the end of the class you have to send out your first pitch. That's the way it works on whether it'll continue to work that way. So I did. It's my first one. It didn't go anywhere. But then admittedly, I didn't do any more after that. I didn't have the – I don't know if the gumption or what to keep going. 

Then immediately as soon as I joined the group and I knew that every week we were going to sit down and say, “Who have you pitched?” There's something about that so maybe that I would say if I could pinpoint it had the biggest impact was just the accountability, which is funny because I was thinking about this earlier when you were talking about support, and I feel like there's this very romanticized notion of the lone rider at their desk, head down at the keyboard. I know, I've certainly had it that, you against the world and that so far from what I have found to help me get any success, so far. It's been the exact opposite. It's when I've opened up to in this case the group and also too, I think it's important to say that writing and getting published are two different things.

Getting published does require, I don't know if that's the right word to say networking, but you are, you're meeting that editor via email or however you're communicating with them and you're building a relationship with them. That's different than the whole writing animal. Again, if I'm honest, a little outside of my wheelhouse, so having the group to push me to do that has been huge for me. I don't know if I've ever really acknowledged that, but that's very true for me.

[00:18:53] YD: I love that. Gosh, so much to unpack there, Ashley. I love everything that you said. By the way, you've met one of the editors that you've worked with in real life after, right? Didn't you meet one of your –

[00:19:06] AB: No, that actually, it wasn't the editor it round up being, I had written an article that had a slant with the Golden Girls. I met the former writers from the Golden Girls. It wasn't the editor.

[00:19:17] YD: Oh, you're right. You're right. You're right.

[00:19:19] AB: It was a cool like meet-up in person after that story came out.

[00:19:24] YD: You're right. You're right. Thank you. I love how you conceptualize that, because that's exactly it, right? We can write again, going back to that metaphor you used in the beginning. We can write all day long in front of our laptop, but ultimately, if you do want, again, your work to be seen by people in these magazines or in these publications or with these brands, it requires for you to put yourself out there basically and to start making those connections and reaching out to people. 

That can be scary because again, at the end of the day, we are afraid that we will get rejected and somebody will pass that ultimate judgment on us, that we're not good enough, we don't have what it takes, our work is not good enough. As you know inside The Circle, I encourage you guys all the time to shift that frame of thinking into – even when you do get rejections, because you do, we do, by the way, we all get many rejections. They never mean that this is a judgment on us or on our craft or on anything that we're trying to do. 

I think that once you realize that, once you get to that point, it's almost floodgates open, because then it becomes easier and easier for you to start reaching out to more people and more publications. Speaking with, how did that change your process of approaching publications or of thinking of what's possible for you in this career? Has it shifted in any way since you've started on this journey?

[00:20:51] AB: I would say definitely. I think, at this point a year and a half in, I’m boulder with who I'll pitch and I don't, I mean, it's still is a little bit of a knock if you get a no or just blank space, you get nothing back. That's almost harder, right? I always would prefer a no, but I don't feel I take it personally anymore, I just move on. I try to anyways. I guess sometimes that's easier said than done, but whereas before, I do feel like and I also think too, that the first few pitches I sent out were so weighted, I was so nervous and just every everything just went over a gazillion times. I do feel like that's improving too, just with repetition.

One thing that we did and we've been continuing with that was a game-changer at the early part of this year was as a collective, as a group. We did a pitch challenge at the beginning of the year, and that was really big for me too, because it just again, it's another layer of accountability where we went week-by-week with how many we're going to get out. Man, I spent one whole weekend getting mine done, because it was Monday and I wanted to be able to put that I had mine done, and versus I think if that wasn't there, I would have said, “I'll do it next week.” Yeah, I mean, I can't really state how valuable that's been. 

[00:22:46] YD: That's amazing.

[00:22:09] YD: Amazing to hear. Let's just pause for a second and recognize that Ashley pitched the New York Times recently. Now, how amazing is that?

[00:22:20] AB: Thank you. Yeah. I think it's important to say I got a no, but I was thrilled that I got a really nice no. I got an email from one of the editors of The New York Times, and I just thought, gosh, what a difference a year makes. A year ago, I didn't even understand what a pitch was. I'm still not in The New York Times yet, but I have had correspondence with their editor and an editor there, so that felt a win. Even the piece wasn't picked up that particular time.

[00:22:49] YD: Absolutely. Yeah. That's exactly it. Every single step that you take on this path expands your possibility or expands your imagining of what is possible for you, because the pitches that you've sent before, Huffington Post, and others that you've sent, all of them have prepared you for the moment of saying what, “I'm going to pitch on New York Times now and I'm going to go for it.” Yeah, of course, maybe the first time you pitched New York Times is not going to happen, but after pitching The New York Times consistently, you're going to get somewhere and I am an absolute true believer of that. I've seen it in my own work. I've seen it in the work of all of you guys, that are continuing to pitch and continuing, no matter what results you are getting at the moment, is that consistency really. 

The more time and consistency and effort you put into something the more it's going to give back to you. That's just the simple law of nature I think, right? You get better at it too. Like you were saying, you were agonizing over every word and some of your initial pitches, and now you're probably much more efficient when your pitches as well. I give an example always how, if I look at some of my earliest pitches right now from five, six years ago, I can't really read them to be honest. That's how horrible they are.

[00:24:10] AB: Well, but in your defense, you didn't have, you. We all have you and the group. I mean, I can only imagine that it just has to be so much harder at that point. I think that's why this is all so valuable, because like I said, you've really pulled back. I know I say that all the time, but you've pulled back the veil, showed us how to do it.

[00:24:28] YD: Yeah. That's the whole reason we're here, right? Because exactly that, because it took me, it was so difficult for me and it was so, yeah. It took much more time and effort than perseverance for me to keep doing it on my own. I felt like I was so lonely in this spot, I didn't see people who would support me in this way that we're supporting each other now.

It gives me great pleasure now to be able to do this. Let's talk a little bit about some of the incredible work that you've been able to do since joining our class and then later our membership of the Circle, which again, for our listeners, a reminder that this year there will be combined for a period of time. So if you're joining us in our class, in our program this year, you're going to get the knowledge inside the class. Then also you're going to get the support inside our membership for six months, which I'm really excited about, but you, Ashley, you've recently published an amazing story about, Nude Bathing on Condé Nast Traveler, one of the most premier travel publications out there. How did it feel for you to see your name on that byline and on that Condé Nast Traveler website?

[00:25:44] AB: It felt incredible. It was so exciting. It was so fun. It was so fun, even just the email back, when I got the email back from the pitch and I feel like maybe you can tell me, maybe this will change as I get further into it, but even so, when you get that yes, it's just such a high. You're just so excited.

[00:26:03] YD: Yes, it's still is a high. That hasn't changed for me.

[00:26:07] AB: No, it was incredible. The editor that I worked with there, Megan, she was just great to work with. The piece came out even better than I would have hoped, so I was really glad with where we landed with it, because it originally was a much longer piece. Then when I pitched it to them, it wound up we cut it by almost a third, which was a learning experience for me too. It was that moment of like, “Okay can I sacrifice this other bit, because I want it to be published in Condé Nast Traveler.” Yes, I definitely could, yeah.

[00:26:41] YD: I love that. I love you're bringing something very important into this conversation, which actually is there are two points here that I want to touch upon. One is that the way I view our interactions with editors now, is I actually cherish them. I cherish them because this is someone who's going to look at my work and make it better. If you come into this with that mindset, it's amazing. I love now when editors are commenting on my work, giving me feedback, cutting things here. 99% of the time, the work that results as part of this collaboration with an editor is much stronger work. That's exciting to me. 

The second point is that this is also a learning experience, like you mentioned. Every time you work with an editor forget about all the other things of your work is now published. You can add it to your portfolio. Your name is now on the Condé Nast Traveler website, but this experience by itself of you submitting your final draft them coming back with feedback, suggesting ways to make it stronger. This is going to make you a better pitcher, writer of pitches, and writer of drafts the next time around, all of these experience as well. That's also a very valuable reason for why we should continue pitching so that we get more stories and we get more of these experiences of working with editors.

[00:28:05] AB: Well, I think two, two other things that made this unique. I don't know if you remember this, but I think it's hilarious that the pitch I sent to Condé Nast Traveler was a practice pitch. I don't know if you remember that, I said that.

[00:28:17] YD: I don't remember that, tell us more.

[00:28:20] AB: This is just a practice thing, they were asking for pitches on firsts. This story was unique in the sense that it had first been a little bit of a loss because I had a different publication that was interested in it. They had asked me to write it on spec. I don't have a lot of experience yet. So I had done that. Then when the piece was done, they wrote back and said, “Gosh, we love it, but for reason X, Y, and Z, it's just not right for us.” So that’s what I tried to, get to focus on that. I had it like waiting in the wings. I really like the story and I didn't want to give up on it. So just at the last minute, I was pitching Megan they were asking for these travel firsts, and I had a few and I just threw it on there. I thought, “Why, not.” Then that was the one that she wanted. You got to just keep going, I guess that's what I'm trying to say.

[00:29:15] YD: Oh, my God. I love that. I didn't remember that, it was a practice, I had it on very pitch but that's actually a great point, because oftentimes there are in my own career as well, when I just add something on and the last moment, that's the one that ends up being except that, you just never know. You really just never know what will resonate with people. That's also another reason why we need to keep pitching and putting our ideas out there. The wider we can cast this net in a very structured and strategic way, right? We don't want to just throw stuff against the wall. We want to do our research. We want to make sure that stuff fits.

Again, the more you put your ideas out there, the more opportunities you have that something will resonate with somebody. That's just so important. For our listeners, writing on spec means that you write the whole piece from beginning to end. When you write it and then you submit it and then they have a chance to say yes or no. That's different from a regular pitching process in which you send them a pitch, a tiny preview of your idea. Then they say, whether they say, yes, we love it now writes the whole piece, or they say no, or they say give me more information. But the difference there is that when you write for spec, you basically do the whole work, submitted in and then it might or might not get accepted.

This is a question that actually people ask me often inside the circle in our membership, should I write the article before I send a pitch? I always say that for the most part, I don't recommend that, because I don't want you to write something that we don't know if it's going to get accepted or not. However, there are also situations like the one that Ashley just mentioned, where another publication had tentatively accepted it. She wrote the piece and then they rejected it, and now she had the piece. So now she did all the work. Now you might as well keep pitching it you find a home for it.

I think this is a story also an example of perseverance paying off, right, Ashley? Because you have pitched with quite a few places if I remember correctly.

[00:31:22] AB: Yeah. Yeah. I really, I had been pitching it to more lifestyle magazines and publications and things like that. This was the first time that I can – because originally too, I would say that the story wasn't necessarily a travel piece. It was more a personal narrative on this experience than I'd had. Again, like you said, just in terms of practice, it was practice taking an idea and changing it to what the pitch request was for, what the publication was looking for, both when I pitched it, but then also it was nice, because I had this piece of work that was done, but then I did have to go back in and rework it for what we had agreed upon. So, yeah, I just the whole thing was a learning process for sure.

[00:32:04] YD: Yeah, I love that you said that, because actually this also to me is one of the fun parts of this job is when you take your idea and you can, but you can shift it and you can shape this malleable idea into something, perhaps even different from where you started to fit with the publication. I think actually that's what stretches our creativity, too, and that's what flexes our creative muscle if you will, to be able to do that. So that's exciting, by the way, I just absolutely love that story. Let's take a second to acknowledge how beautifully written that story is. So for your comment earlier, how you weren't sure you have what it takes, you didn't study creative writing in school. What else did you say that you didn't – you only had a two-year degree? None of that mattered, because that's story is beautiful, beautifully written, extremely poignant. I thought.

It just shows, again, another fundamental truth that I believe that's we are all natural storytellers, because it's human nature, to tell stories and to share ourselves with the world. I just really love that story. For our listeners, we're going to include it in our show notes. so please go and check it out yourself. I love how you took us from that – in that story, you took us on the journey from being very uncomfortable situation to that beautiful moment in the end when you took off your bikini bottoms and rode off into the sunset. Listeners, we won't say more, but you have to go check it out, but what do you love most about this story?

[00:33:40] AB: Well, first of all, thank you. That's just so nice and coming from you, that just means so much. I mean, I think what I love the most about this story is what you said is how as I started to think of the experience, because as you do something that, you're like, “Okay, we're going to go nude bathing, this nude bathing place. But it really did strike me as a meditation of sorts with being able to be uncomfortable. I am a big believer that if you can learn to be uncomfortable, it just benefits you so much. I have this good friend and she always talks about type two fun and type two fun is like, when what you're doing sucks while you're doing it. Then when it's over, you're like, “Oh, that was great. Let's do it again.” 

It's like hiking or climbing or whatever it is. She's like, “Oh, that's type two fun. I feel like this experience, as I looked back on it, felt like that. Especially for someone with my, I'm a little more reserved. I tend to be a little shy, so it's not, again, just I was talking about with the networking

thing, it's maybe not in my wheelhouse to go to a nude bathing establishment, but I had this wonderful friend who she loves to go and it was such a fun day. But at first, yeah, I was not comfortable. Also too, just a little bit of a lesson to get in over yourself too, like everybody's naked, nobody really cares. I think that's where the arc, I hope eventually lands is that as I look around to these other women especially, nobody cares. It's not really even that big of a deal. I think that was an enjoyable part of the creative process for me, was trying to find that narrative within the experience that I had.

[00:35:26] YD: Oh, so beautifully said, Ashley. So beautifully said, because that's also another conversation that we can have and dedicate the whole episode to. I see that a lot of people have experiences. Not a lot of people know how to draw narratives and stories and arcs out of those experiences. When you are able to do that and by the way, in the class, we have a section dedicated to that as well, because there's a real need for that, actually. I see this all the time, which is the conversation we have in the circle a lot about does this have an angle? What is the angle? Is this a story or is this just content? Because as storytellers that want to pitch magazines, that want to pitch New York Times and Condé Nast Traveler, we need to be able to do that.

We need to be able to draw those narratives and to draw those arcs out of the experiences that we have, right. That's the craft of writing for magazines, if you will. That's what it's all about. Yeah, I mean, your story absolutely did that. It was a beautiful story. Again, great, great accomplishment, so I want to congratulate you on that. Yeah, for our listeners who do check it out because we're linking it to the show notes. How did they experience and we touched, we touched on this already, but if you were to sum it up, how did this experience of getting that fundamental knowledge at first and then being in the community with all of these amazing women who are inside The Circle — By the way, shout out to all of you, we love you. You are amazing. How did it impact you and what are you doing differently now than you were before?

[00:37:06] AB: I mean, I hate to keep saying this, but I think the answer just keeps coming back that before the experience of joining the group, I had this idea and I feel like I've heard you talk about this, too, with your podcast a little bit. I had this notion that it was a nut that I had to crack by myself. Now that I've been in this for a while, I feel like, because even now that I feel like, okay, I know how to pitch. I've been doing it about 18 months. I have a handle on it. Is it still necessary to be in the group? 

Well, at this point in my process, it sure is, because like I said, it's the thing that has kept me going and there's I mean, at least in this beginning stage for me, there's been a few lulls. So that's made the difference where, I mean you've sent out six pitches and have heard nothing or her noes or whatever, but then you just have this group that you keep meeting with. Like you said, I mean, do you think we are fortunate that everybody in the group is just so supportive and fun and funny and keeps it light even when it feels. There have been times I feel like, at one point or another, I feel like all of us have come into the WhatsApp group, not necessarily to complain, but just to, we just need a pick me up for whatever reason we got in a big no or whatever. I feel we've all done it in different times and everybody's so great about chiming in and being like, “Oh yeah, that happened to me.” Or just keep on, whatever it is.

I think I have been surprised at the impact that's had on me that sometimes it seems just the littlest thing to send a message to someone and also to just how supportive it is that in the group, if you are working on something that really matters to you or that you're feeling self-conscious about how we have the place where we can put it up, we can put the pitch review, and I feel that's huge because sometimes it's not even so much that you change a lot. Sometimes you do change it a lot, but it's just having somebody else's eyes on it and just be like, “Yep, that's good, go for it.” Then I just, I don't know, those things have been invaluable so far to me.

[00:39:05] YD: Yeah. Thank you. I appreciate that, Ashley. yeah, the pitch review is huge, right? I think that's true in any situation when you're working on something, you're so deep in it. You're so like your whole heart, especially if it's a piece of writing and if it's something that you're really feeling strongly about, your whole everything is in there. So sometimes you just don't see some of the things that, to an outside eye would be more obvious. Yeah, I think I agree with you that pitch review is really important. I'm glad that you guys are all taking advantage of that practice and making your pitches stronger as a result. 

I also want to say something about how you mentioned that you, before you thought that you really have to crack this nut alone. I feel like a lot of times where even social, if I think of my own upbringing and my own life, career, or life trajectory. That was always the case that you have to prove that you can do it on your own. Only then you are true successful or true – Yeah, exactly right? 

[00:40:13] AB: Yeah.

[00:40:13] YD: How terrible that is that we have this deeply seeded belief inside us, that's how – because actually, if you look at more success stories out there in any industry, in any space, what do people always say? They always say how there are so many people who help them get there or who lifted them up. The example I always like to give was Beyoncé, who has this whole team of people behind her, r ight? Beyoncé is not just Beyoncé, because she's Beyoncé, although, of course, she's Beyoncé, I mean, don't get me wrong. Oh, my God. I hope I didn't upset anyone. Don't get angry emails now, but you know what I mean? She has a team of people also to make all these projects that she's doing and everything. It's not just her, it's what I mean. I feel like, we often have this idea, many women do that I've met and talked to that I have to succeed on my own and how it's hurting us, actually, this belief.

[00:41:07] AB: Yeah. I agree completely. I think too, as I've gotten a little bit older, too, I've found that to be true, not just in writing and just even amongst my female friends. I think we've all said as we're getting older like, “Gosh, we need to rely on each a little bit more.” Just there's just so much and not just even females, right? There’s other people in our lives. Didn't have to be female-oriented, just that there is a benefit of leaning on people. I've said this before too, I've had benefit too from having to be there for other people. That's been a good thing for me, because again, it's easy to get into your own little tunnel and just be on your own. But then when you have to show up for other people too, I think that's a good, healthy thing or it has been for me.

[00:41:52] YD: Yeah, absolutely. Ashley, I could talk to you forever. We already established that when we were sitting at the airport leaving Texas.

[00:42:00] AB: Right, which was such a fun time, by the way, if anybody is wondering about those trips, the trip to Texas was a great first run for our Travel Media Lab for sure.

[00:42:47] YD: Thank you. Thank you so much, Ashley. Yeah, we're working on our next one, so stay tuned everyone. But to close today’s conversation. I wanted to ask you what would you say to someone who is interested in getting their stories published and perhaps taking some of these steps towards their creative aspiration, but is either unsure what steps to take next or unsure if it's right for them, unsure if they have what it takes, all these doubts and concerns that we've discussed earlier. I'm sure a lot of people have it, because I hear it all the time, actually, from all of you who come into the Travel Media Lab, that everybody has similar concerns. What would you say to someone who is listening and having those concerns right now?

[00:42:57] AB: I would say that if that's where you're at, if that's where you're feeling, that there really isn't that I know of no better space to entrench yourself in to give it a try, especially with what you're talking about, with this new format where you're going to have this six-month trial membership of The Circle. I mean, six months, you can do a lot of damage in six months, in terms of pitches set. It's going to give you a really good idea of whether or not this is what you want to do. It's all going to be there for you, so I would just say, do it.

[00:43:30] YD: Yes. Listen to Ashley. Go sign up to our class. Come join us and let's start making it happen for you as well. I think what's important is what you said is that, you do need time. You do need to dedicate some time to this, right? I think if you're expecting to just take this class and quickly get results or quickly figure out if this is for you, that's probably not going to be right for you because you do need some time. I think six months is actually to be honest. I think that's the minimum that you need, but it's just enough time to give you a taste and for you to understand if this is something that you want to continue in, because like I always say too, this is a long term project, long term, and it requires long term commitment from you because it takes time to build your portfolio. It takes time to develop those relationships. 

Sometimes I feel like, I sound like a broken record because that's what I always say, but it's true, it takes time, but it does get easier especially if you have support from amazing people like Ashley and others in our membership. So yeah, I think that's spot on, what you're saying, Ashley. I want to say thank you so much for coming today and for chatting with us and for our listeners. Please check out Ashley's story, connect with her on Instagram. She's a wonderful writer, beautiful writer. She writes just really beautifully, so go check out her work and come join us in our program. 

Again, it's now a class with the six months included inside our membership. So you get the best of our knowledge of the Travel Media Industry and how to pitch, plus the support and all of the things that we're doing inside The Circle. Come join us and let's have fun together. 

[OUTRO]

[00:45:15] YD: Did you hear something that resonated with you from Ashley's story? Maybe you were listening and you're like, Oh, I've said that to myself before. I felt that. I've wanted that. If you resonated with what Ashley had to say, then maybe just maybe our upcoming Intro to Travel Journalism program is right for you.

It gives you all the systems and the knowledge you need to get a footing in the travel media industry and send your pitches out. But that's not even what makes this program so powerful.  We are also including a six month membership inside the Circle in this program too. I'm running a free info session this week in a couple of days.

If you're listening, this live on Friday, November 18th at 11:00 AM Eastern. And we start enrolling for the program next week. So if you want to know more about how this program can help you,  don't wait. Visit travelmedialab.com/infosession to register today.  Thank you so much again for listening, and I'll see you next week.

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