S7 E79: From Passion for Travel to Award-winning Stories with Jessica Vincent (Re-Release)

Get the show’s transcript

“JV: At the last minute, I decided to just say I'm going to go traveling, but would you be interested in keeping me on, remotely? I literally shuddered when I said it, because I thought, “Oh, my God. What have I just done? This is embarrassing because I'm going to get rejected.” After a little bit of silence and he looked around the room. He went, “Actually that's not a bad idea.” It was a huge win for me. I remember getting on the train home with a big smile on my face thinking, “What have I just done? I have no idea.” I didn't even know where it was going at that point. I didn't know where I was going to travel to, what my plan was, but my boss said he was going to take me on and it was a fraction of the money that I would earn in London that it was a little bit of money. That gave me the confidence to book my flight out to Cuba. That's where it all began.”

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:47] YD: Welcome to the Travel Media Lab Podcast. I'm your host, Yulia Denisyuk, an the award-winning travel photographer and writer, entrepreneur, community builder, and a firm believer that every one of us can go after the stories we've always wanted to tell, with the right support, encouragement, and structure. I'm on a mission to help women storytellers everywhere break into and thrive in the travel media space. If you're ready to ditch your fears to the side, grow your knowledge and confidence, and publish your travel stories. You're in the right place. Let's go.

[INTERVIEW]

[00:01:24] YD: If you're a newer listener to our show, you might not have had the chance to work through our whole library yet. Over the last seven seasons, we've recorded a variety of interviews and in-depth episodes on a range of topics in travel media. That's why this week and next, I want to share with you two very special episodes from our extensive archive. Today, I want to bring to your attention an episode with it all the way back in season two of our podcast with travel writer, Jessica Vincent. Jessica is a multi-award-winning journalist working with BBC Travel, National Geographic Traveler, CNN Travel, and more. Even since we had this conversation, she's been doing amazing things in the travel media space like publishing a book on Best British travel writing. 

Definitely, check out what she's been up to on Instagram. You can find her there @nomadatravel, and we'll share the link to her profile, as well. In the chatter you're about to hear Jessica gives poignant, real inspiring, and uplifting advice about, starting into travel journalism. I loved talking to Jessica about her experiences and the very real challenges she faced on this battle like facing your fears, taking action, and how we can better support ourselves while developing our portfolio. I hope you enjoy this episode. 

Welcome, Jess to our podcast. I'm so thrilled to have you on today and to learn about your super inspiring story. Welcome. I can't wait to get into it.

[00:03:02] JV: Thanks so much. Looking forward to it.

[00:03:04] YD: First of all, tell me how are you doing? You're in the UK right now, which is going through another lockdown?

[00:03:11] JV: Yes. Yeah. The UK is not doing great at the moment. We've had, yeah, new variants. The cases have been really going up, but there is light at the end of the tunnel. The UK is vaccinated, I think over four and a half million people. I'm really, really hoping that in the next couple of months, things will improve. We'll have to wait and see, but at the moment, it's lockdown for everyone. Yeah, I'm in my house in Brighton. I haven't left the house for weeks. I'm so happy to be speaking about travel today, because I need a bit of escapism.

[00:03:46] YD: Yes, absolutely. That's the sentiment that I've been getting this whole time with this podcast is that we need some joy. This is a joyful subject for many, so excited that we are able to do this. I want to start our conversation where I usually start which is tell me what was just dreaming about, as a kid.

[00:04:05] JV: Gosh, Yulia. What wasn’t I dreaming about? I think the uneasy question now, I had a huge imagination as a child. I think I still do. I have a big imagination. In my head, I really believed that anything was possible, just six, seven, eight-years-old could do anything. I would chop and change what I was dreaming about almost every week, I think. One week I'd want to be a ballet dancer. I was really into dancing when I was younger. I went to ballet class. I still love dancing. That's still a big dream of mine to be a dancer one day, who knows? The next week I'd want to be a vet or a lifeguard, a cabin crew. I think I went through that phase. I went to be a [inaudible 00:04:50]. 

I think the closest I got to committing to a career path for longer than let's say a day or a week was when I went to Mexico with my mom. I think I was nine years old. We spent a whole day swimming with dolphins and manatees and turtles. It was a day trip. That day really just blew me away. It was the best day that I'd had in my life in my nine years of being on the planet, but it really, really did blow me away. I remember looking at the guide, who was on the trip with us and thinking, “This guy's job is to swim with dolphins all day?” I'd never been exposed to anything like that before. I couldn't believe that his job was just to be out in the water all day long, meeting new people and swimming with these amazing animals. 

I remember just staring at him being a bit weird about the whole thing. Then I plucked up the courage to say to him, “I think your job is amazing. I would love to do this when I'm older.” Then my imagination ran away from me. I said, “I'm free next summer. I'm going to come here.” I looked at my mom, and I was like, “I'll get my mom to plan the trip for me. We can come next year, and I will train.” I was nine years old, that was not going to happen, but I was just so excited about it. He very sweetly said, “You're always welcome here. You can come whenever you want.” 

I took that as a job offer. I was like, “That's it, Mom, this is me. I'm going to go to Mexico and be a snorkeling guide. That's me. That was what I was dreaming about for a long time.” It's funny because I never obviously ended didn't become a snorkeling guide, but I did return to Mexico and ended up living there for six months. I then ended up living in Latin America on and off for three years. I think thinking about it now, I didn't know at the time, obviously, but that trip to Mexico probably did plant a seed for traveling in Latin America, that how I'd how I have done for the last four years. Yeah.

[00:06:44] YD: I love how you had this dream, and you've got inspired by his job and what he does. Immediately, like, “Yes, I'm coming back next year.” I love that. I love that desire to act and go for it. Kids thrive as children. We have this ability to do that. Then sometimes we lose that as we grow older. 

[00:07:05] JV: that's sad. That's really sad for me. I think as kids were encouraged to dream a lot more as children. Whereas it's always felt like an overnight thing for me when you hit your teenage years. Suddenly dreaming is no longer, “Oh, that's sweet. She's got a big imagination.” It's like, oh, this is unrealistic. 

[00:07:24] YD: The world starts showing us in very different ways how it's not possible to do something, right? I think that's really, at least for me, that's been this guiding light or this guidepost to walk towards is that as the world keeps like showing me, that it's not possible. I stubbornly return to that childish determination that no, it is possible. Then you start looking for ways or you start looking for signs from the world because the world shows you both ways. That's the trick, right? It's a matter of what you're paying attention to. Are you paying attention to the signs that say, “No, it's not possible?” Or are you paying attention to the science that say, “You can do it? It's your choice.” 

[00:08:05] JV: Yeah. It is.

[00:08:08] YD: Amazing. What was your childhood like in general? Where did you grow up? 

[00:08:11] JV: I grew up in southeastern Spain. In a little village called Albir. It's about a 45-minute drive from Alicante, in Spain. I have really fond memories. I was born in the Canary Islands, but we moved to mainland Spain when I was about three years old. Spain is a beautiful place to grow off. I'm so grateful for that because it living in Spain. I mean, you spend they have long summers, especially in the south, really long days in the summer. You spend most of your time outside. I spent a lot of my time in the water. I was 10-minute walk from the beach. 

Yeah. I really just, it was a very safe village as well. My mom would allow me to go and go out with my friends and go out for a walk in the mountains. It wasn't it was safe to do that, so I felt I had a lot of freedom and spending a lot of time outside and I still to this day feel most comfortable when I can see the sea when the sun is out, when I'm outside is where I'm happiest. I think that comes from growing up in a small town in Spain where that was available to me, but that's not to say it wasn't without its difficulties. It was just me and my mom. My father left us when I was three years old.

[00:09:27] YD: Oh, my God. Same –

[00:09:29] JV: Oh, really? 

[00:09:30] YD: Exactly at three years old for me, as well. 

[00:09:32] JV: Wow. What is it about that? That’s it. Dream is – Yeah, it was a very sudden thing. It wasn't at least what my mom tells me. It was an overnight thing. He packed up and left. That was a big strain. He lived in the Canary Islands and my mom and I were in the mainland. So I would fly to see my father for a few years the relationship continued. I would fly as in accompanied minor on a plane, actually to see him. My first experience flying solo was when I was about six years old. Which, yeah, that's obviously a good experience there for someone who would later become a traveler full-time.

[00:10:15] YD: Jess, this is so amazing, because that's exactly what happened to me, too. My first accompanied flight was when I was around five. It's like – it’s so cool that our paths are like unfolding in this way.

[00:10:29] JV: We’re the same person, really.

[00:10:30] YD: I know. I know. We are. We have to meet now in person. We have to figure out a way to do that.

[00:10:35] JV: We definitely do. Definitely Do. So even though that we’re looking back now, I mean, I'm sure you probably feel the same. Now you think back and go, wow, what a privilege in a way as a child to be able to see new places to fly solo. All of these things, shape who you are later in life, but at the time, I didn't see it like that always. I wanted to just be like my friends. I wanted my dad to be at home and I wanted to not have to fly to a new place in the holidays. I wanted to stay with my friends and play with my friends during holidays. You know, things like that. 

It was confusing for a child and emotionally draining to not have your parents together and for them not to get on very well and having to travel to see different parents at different times. That showed in my behavior. I was quite badly behaved as a child. Quite rebellious. My mom loves to tell me the story when I was ill with tonsillitis. I had to stay at home. My mom took the day off work while she was working from home and she said you need to stay at home, you need to go to bed. She went off started working in the lounge. Then an hour later, she was like “It’s very quiet in Jess’s bedroom.” I'd packed my bag and I'd left. I didn't want to stay at home. I wanted to be at school with my friends. 

Yeah, I ended up coming back in a police car and things – Yeah, and that's not the only time I was in the back of a police car. I was quite adventurous as a six-year-old, seven-year-old. I was quite badly behaved for a little while and I did spend some time in a convent school. I think my mom thought that might help to straighten me out. It did to some extent. Nuns are terrifying. They still do terrify me. I think that's from my childhood. Yeah. I think my behavior really began to change when I moved to the UK. I then moved to the UK when I was 10. My mom and I moved back, so that's where my mom's from. 

My dad's Spanish, my mom's English. She wanted to move back to the UK to be close to family. We moved in with my grandparents, which I know in many cultures to live with your grandparents that's, completely normal. In the UK, it was rare. At least none of my friends at school lived with their grandparents, so that was different, but I loved it. I loved it for me, my mom was away a lot. She worked very long hours, and my Nan and my granddad for me that calming stable influence on me. That bad behavior slowly turned into, I used that that fire that energy in me to do well at school when I put my head down and suddenly was doing well at school, which I wasn't doing so well when I was in Spain.

[00:13:19] YD: I love this story of yours. I love this experience that you had having that time with your grandparents because this is actually something that's happening to me right now. I'm living in a multi-generational household with my mom and my grandma here. That hasn't happened and for a very long time, especially to have this time with my grandma, as she's getting so much older now. I just appreciate that so much that you have that time, which you rightly pointed out is not very common in a lot of Western countries. That's amazing that you had that experience. You move to the UK and you started studying. You put your head down like you said. You started studying hard. Then at that point you had this dream of perhaps becoming a snorkeler and swimmer in Mexico. Here you are now, an amazing, accomplished travel journalists. Walk us through that path a little bit, right? As you were finishing school, what were your thoughts on okay, what do I do next? How did that unfold?

[00:14:22] JV: Yeah. So I went through my education in the UK and when I first moved to the UK even though my mom is English. My written English and my reading skills were really, really bad. I couldn't string a sentence together on paper, which is surprising to many considering now I write for a living. So I had to learn very quickly. I did extra classes. I don't know what it was at what point but something within me changed. I think it was because for the first time at school was what I was behind. I was no longer on the level playing field with the rest of my classmates and no child wants to be behind their classmates. 

I worked really, really hard. I took extra classes. Eventually, slowly over the years, I went from being in the bottom set. I don't know if in the US, it's like this, but in the UK, we have different sets of classes. If you're not very good, you'd be in set four, and work your way up to set one. Slowly, slowly, I was able to make my way up. That was to me, my real goal when I was younger to move my way up those sets and improve my English skills, because I hate – I had a Spanish accent when I spoke English, as well, which I hated because you just don't want to be different. 

Now when people hear me speak, I sound very British. You wouldn't know any different. It just goes to show kids such as sponges, and we just change and adapt very, very quickly. I ended up going to college. Then that was the first time I was in sixth form, we call it. I started a newsletter. That was my first experience of editorial. It wasn't online. It was like a printed newsletter. It was pretty awful, actually, but that was my first. I was really into - I loved it, studying English. That was my favorite subject of school. I was terrible at Math. I was not like great at Science. For me, it was Languages and Literature. That very quickly, it became apparent that what I was good at. That I was good at communicating things, I was good at writing, reading all of those things. Yeah. As a hobby, I started a newsletter that went out to parents. I was so geeky looking back. What a nerd.

[00:16:36] YD: What was the newsletter about?

[00:16:38] JV: It was just about news that had gone on in that month at school. Like, who had won prizes, who was doing well in their class like sports events. The parents loved it. They loved getting updates on their kids. I would interview students. I loved it. I loved interviewing. Looking back, I need to find those newsletters, actually. Then from there, I then decided, okay, I did well in my levels, and all my best grades were in English and Languages Literature. I decided to study comparative literature at university in London. Going to London, for me from a small town in Surrey, in the south of England just completely blew my mind. 

London is such a multicultural city. I had chosen to study at a university where the study abroad program was huge. The Erasmus program was really, really popular. My course in particular, you had to have a second language to take the course. Not many British people have a second language, would you believe? So a lot of the people on my course were from different countries. I had people from Russia, people from China, people from Germany, France, Italy, all over the world. That was really my first experience of being surrounded by people from all over the world and really getting to know those people as I was studying with them every day and socializing with them. 

That really opened my mind to that. While I was at university, I went from doing my own student newsletter to then going to university where there was a whole team of people doing student paper, and the one at Kings was actually quite well known in London because it had won awards as a student paper. As soon as I got there, in my first year at uni. I went straight to it was called Raw News. I went to them and worked did a few articles for them. Eventually, I applied to be one of the editors, opinion editor. Yeah, I was already dipping my toes into the world of journalism, a lot of student journalism. That was all through, just because I liked writing. I particularly loved doing interviews with students. That allowed me to do that. I actually spent more time probably doing that than I did my actual course, which yeah, it became a bit of a problem, but it also showed me that there was something in it here, I was really, really enjoying it.

[00:18:56] YD: I love that experience of you being surrounded by all these different people from all over the world. It just opens up your worldview so much, doesn't it? When you see different cultures and all these different ways in which people live. I don't know. It just - there's something about it that's so enriching. It's amazing that you had that experience at particular that time, because it's also a crucial time, right, when you're in university. You're starting to think about what's next. What do I do, and you have this experience, I feel like it really opens you up to the world. Okay, so you were in the uni, you had these experiences, interviewing with the school paper, and then what happened next?

[00:19:36] JV: I finished my degree and like many, many students, you then go and now what this piece of paper is amazing, very nice, but now what do I do? Like all good students, I got straight down to work and looked for graduate jobs in London. I found one quite quickly because at that time, I have to take anything. I had no money. I just come out of university living in London is very expensive. I needed some money. I took always the first job that came up, but funnily enough, it was actually in travel. It was a travel app. Travel was very much in my mind. It was a travel app. I joined as a marketing intern. I was doing a lot of blog writing, and a very interesting part of that job. 

My job was to approach travel influencers to share the story of this app, and to be – and their blogs and to put them on their Instagram stories and posts. So I was sitting there in an office in London. It was the middle of winter. I'm just seeing these beautiful, normally beautiful bloggers and beautiful influencers doing amazing things all over the world. I thought, “God, this is amazing. How are these guys doing that.” Then equally on the other side, I didn't identify with what these particular influencers that I was working with were doing. I didn't see myself as an influencer. I very much still had in my head I wanted to be a journalist. I wanted to be a journalist and also be able to travel. 

Travel was in my mind from the beginning, I actually, within a month or two, I knew that actually, this job was more just to save money. Then I would go traveling as soon as I'd saved enough. I stayed there for nine months. I thought, the more I keep doing this work with influencers, the more I'm thinking, well, if they can do it, why can't I find something that not necessarily that it will be in trouble writing, but something that will allow me to travel for a long period of time and not have to come back just because of money. I didn't take a gap year. I thought, “This is my time, I'm going to save my money, and then go.” Then I saw a blog about someone who was working for their company remotely. I didn't even know really what the word meant at the time. I'd heard it thrown around, but what does that mean to work remotely? 

I read a post and it said, they'd asked their boss to take them on remotely. They'd said yes. I thought, “Should I do that?” I'm thinking of going traveling. I could ask my boss, if we were a small team, it was a startup company. This is pretty bold of me, because I was an intern, so why someone would keep it into an arm remotely, when they've only been here for a couple of months. I don’t know what I was thinking, but I'd been there. I’ve managed to stick it out for nine months. I was commuting in every single day from Surrey. I absolutely hated the commute. It took me almost two hours to get into work. It wasn't for me. I really wasn't happy, but what kept me going was that, okay, I'm going to go traveling no matter what happens when I hit that nine-month period, when I said I would go traveling. I'm going to do it. That's what kept me going. 

I handed in my notice to say I was going and at the last minute, I decided to just say I'm going to go traveling, but would you be interested in keeping me on remotely? I kind of winced. I literally like shuddered when I said it, because I thought, “Oh, my God. What have I just done? This is embarrassing because I'm going to get rejected.” After a little bit of silence and he looked around the room. He went, “Actually, that's a bad idea.” 21-year-old Jess sitting in a big office in London with the CEO of this startup, and yeah, it was a huge win for me. I remember getting on the train home with a big smile on my face thinking, “What have I just done? I have no idea.” I didn't even know where I was going at that point. I didn't know where I was going to travel to. What my plan was, but my boss said he was going to take me on. It was a fraction of the money that I would earn in London but it was a little bit of money. That gave me the confidence to book my flight out to Cuba. That's where it all began.

[00:23:34] YD: Oh, my gosh. That is so amazing. I just love that story so much. So many points that stood out to me in what you said in your experience. First, is that how important that is for us to really see other people doing something similar to what we want to do, right? So your experience with those influencers and even though you knew you didn't want to do that exactly, but you saw them doing something amazing with their life. You're like, “How can I do that?” Because a lot of times when we have these dreams that are, let's say outside of the norm that are a little bit more scary or a little bit more bold. It's so important for us to surround ourselves with people who are on similar paths, because there's something happens when we see other people do it. It's like, “I can do it, too.” 

It's so important. It sounds like that's what happened to you, too. That's really cool. I feel like in this career, we have to have this boldness almost sometimes to go and ask for things that we want and not be afraid that we're going to get rejection or actually be afraid and do it anyway. I feel like, that was your example too that you had in your character where you just went and asked for it. Even though you were shattering like, “I'm going to get rejected right now.” But you did it. That is so important, because when you pitch, when you put your ideas out there, there's always that possibility, right? That you're going to get rejected for a lot of different reasons, but doing it anyway. Even if you're afraid of that rejection going for it anyway, that's super important. You had it even back then to do that. So that's amazing.

[00:25:14] JV: Yeah. I know. The rejection thing. You've made a really good point there, because I was almost more afraid of the embarrassment of him saying, “No.” Than the actual outcome, does that make sense? It was that feeling, that awkwardness of being told no because immediately you think I'm being told no because he's not taking me seriously. I'm being told no because I'm not good enough. Rather than Oh, that, he said, no. It's not the right time. It's not the right thing for him. Okay, let's move on. You pick yourself up. It was just the fear of that awkwardness and just being made to feel small.

[00:25:48] YD: Yeah. I think it's because we take those notes as a personal judgment on ourselves, that's why it's so hard. When we can learn that it's absolutely not about ourselves, but like you said, there's so many different reasons. The timing isn't right. They don't have the budget, whatever else is the reason. It's never about a personal judgment on yourself and I think once you internalize that, then you become so much more spacious in the way you approach all these situations. It's not about me. Let's ask, and let's just see what happens. I feel like it's such a different space to be in as you go through your life. 

[00:26:26] JV: It is. It's easier said than done. I think when you hear people talk about that, you go, “Yeah, of course. I'm going to do it next time.” Just stall or you stall again, but really, to anyone feeling like that, just know that you're not alone in that, because we all experience it. You will find a moment where it feels right for you. For some reason, something will just click. In that moment, I think it was a bit of just blind panic. It just came out. Sometimes it just needs to just stumble out like that, even if it doesn't sound rehearsed, or very eloquent, but it comes out anyway. Then yeah, I think good things sometimes come out of it.

[00:27:04] YD: One thing that we also discuss in our community is that there are ways that you can also build up that muscle of being afraid of rejection or of hearing no. Like one small example I'll give is that start practicing the little things each day. Outside of the pandemic, before the pandemic, what we would recommend is you can start going up to people on the street and asking them for $5. People are going to say, no, most likely. It's very hard to come up to a stranger and to ask for $5 or go up to a coffee shop and ask for a free coffee. It's going to be very hard to do that. You're probably going to hear no, in response, but that's the way you practice that overcoming that feeling, that embarrassment that you are talking about. You're learning in the process that actually nothing bad is happening. Okay, I just heard a no, but I survived this. You overcome that over time. So little small ways in which you can practice that is something that you can do as well.

[00:28:01] JV: I actually listened to that in your previous. I think you said in one of your other episodes, and that really resonated with me to just nothing bad happens. Nothing bad happens. I think until you’ve experienced that yourself. It doesn't sink in. Someone can tell you that a million times, but you really need to experience it and to really see that nothing bad actually happens.

[00:28:24] YD: You went to Cuba. You started traveling full-time while you had this support from the startup in London, which is actually a very smart way to do this, right? Instead of jumping off without any support. I always recommend that if you're thinking about pursuing a similar path, that you figure out a way to have some support, whether it's a part-time remote job or any other way that you can create that for yourself. It's just a really good way to do that. Is that when your travel storytelling career started?

[00:28:59] JV: No, not really. The travel storytelling came after when I first started traveling. I didn't know yet. That was exactly what I wanted to do. I knew I love to write. I knew I loved traveling. I knew all of the storytelling, but I just didn't know how to put it all together. Honestly, I didn't really even know that travel writing was a real job. I saw, I just couldn't fathom that idea. I obviously saw for me what was most visible was the influencer side, if anything, because I was a social media user. When I was planning my trip, I would use Instagram for inspiration. I would use blog posts for inspiration. So for me, they were the people at the forefront. I didn't really know of that many journalists that were being quite vocal about their career. It didn't seem attainable to me at the time. 

Slowly as I started traveling, I started posting a few things to Instagram and at the time, I didn't have a following, but I noticed that quite a few people would give me really great feedback about the kinds of places that I'd be into, and the kinds of things that I've done. They'd go, “Oh, wow. I wouldn't have thought to go there. Well, how did you plan that? That craftsmen that you met, that was incredible. I would never would have thought to go and meet them.” Things like that. To me when I was traveling through Cuba and Costa Rica, Panama. Those things first, I don't know why, but they were coming naturally to me. I really liked speaking to people. I liked getting off the beaten track and sitting down to dinner and having all these experiences that weren't in my guidebook, and it didn't feel like a chore to me. It didn't feel difficult. 

Having the Spanish, obviously really helped with that and it got to a point where I'd met so many amazing people. I thought there are stories here. There are stories. The first time I looked into it, I saw a Matador Network had a, what's it called a ‘Marketplace,’ I think it's called. Where they put out a pitch for a story about I don't know Spanish foods or something to do with foods. I thought I can do this. I am half Spanish. I've lived half my life in Spain. I can pitch this. It was a travel publication. It didn't matter that it wasn't about where I was at the time, but it was something and I pitched it and they got back to me. They said, “Yes.” They weren't paying much money at all, but for me, it was a huge win, because Matador network, I'd followed them on Instagram. They had a big following. They had loads of cool articles out. So I thought, wow, yeah, that was that was huge for me. 

Then from there, I wrote for Culture Trip in the similar way. They put out a call for pictures and someone in a travel group that I joined, used to work for Culture Trip. They gave me an email to an editor. I sent the editor an email, say, “Hey, I'm traveling full time. I'm in Latin America. I've seen that.” At the time, Culture Trip would churning out so much content, so much content. They needed cheap prices, essentially. All over the world who were on the ground and could give them listicles and guides and things like that. I can turn around articles around very quickly. I ended up writing 30 articles for Culture Trip a month, for about eight or nine months. I was doing a lot of articles for them. Actually, maybe we'll talk about this after, but I shouldn't have given all my work to Culture Trip. That comes round to me not feeling good enough yet to pitch my stories to National Geographic or the BBC.

[00:32:22] YD: Tell me more about that. When you say you shouldn't have given all your work to Culture Trip. Let's unpack that a little bit.

[00:32:28] JV: Yeah. So I felt once I got that permission, and it was that for Culture Trip. They then offered me to write 30 stories a month. I thought that was wonderful to be paid on a contract to produce 30 travel articles a month for culture trip. That's an amazing job, but then what happened was that any school story that I found, where I was, at the time in Peru –

[00:32:51] YD: It was like they had first priority for it? 

[00:32:54] YD: Well, they didn't have to, but in my head, I thought that I had to keep them happy. I had to keep them on side. Everything I had, I was just out to please. I was up to please. Whatever story I had, I gave it to them. They were loving it, because they were getting some cool stories, because I was going beyond the listicles, because I enjoy writing about is longer form, deep dives into cultural pieces. That's what I was pitching to them. Looking back now, I wish I'd realized earlier that you don't have to have lots and lots and lots of experience, some experience, yes, but not lots and lots to pitch to at least try to pitch to the bigger magazines. Yeah, that was a learning curve for me.

[00:33:41] YD: I love that you said that, Jess. Thank you so much, because this is exactly at the crux of everything that we do with genius women, right? It's realizing that you have a unique voice, you have a unique perspective, and your stories matter. What you have to say matters and deserves to be out there in the world. Exactly like you said, right? Yes, some experience is great. You have to be strategic and you have to do your homework when you're pitching these bigger publications, but don't let that lack of let's say, already huge, amazing, accomplished portfolios stop you from going out there and reaching out. I think there is definitely a time and a place for publications like Matador and Culture Trip. I actually started my first published article, I think was Matador network. I think it was like 14 hours an article. 

[00:34:30] JV: Yeah, snap. 

[00:34:30] YD: It's crazy how our paths are so similar. 

[00:34:32] JV: It’s really crazy. Yeah.

[00:34:35] YD: There is a time and a place for publications like that. When you're trying out, right? When you're like trying to see for yourself that this is possible for you, because that's the most important part for that. We call it starter publications in our course. I have this tiered approach to how you start pitching and these are I call them starter publications. This is for you to see for yourself, to feel it in your bones that this is possible for you. To your point, you bring those really amazing stories to publications that you really want to work with. I really appreciate you sharing that story with us.

[00:35:07] JV: My pleasure, pleasure. Yeah. It was, I just realized too late, I think. Part of that was because I just didn't know what I was doing. I was just happy to get whatever work I could. I wish that that would have been different, but then again working for Culture Trip did really improve my writing and improve my pitching, so nothing's wasted.

[00:35:29] YD: Absolutely. I always say this too, that actually one of the best ways for us to get better and to improve our work is to start working, and to start pitching, and start writing actual articles. I look back now to sound the things I wrote in 2016, 2017. I cringe honestly, with how else you improve. I think it really matters that you do this professionally for pay; meaning that you put out this work, that might not be that good, but the way for you to get better is to keep doing that professionally, because I could be writing for myself in my Google Doc for myself forever, but it's important to get that feedback, right? From other people looking at your work and I always say that, for me the best gift of this job andhe process that I enjoy so much is working with editors who are stellar, who are improving my work with their feedback, with their questions, with their pointed notes. I love that, because they make the work so much stronger in the end. That collaboration is really special.

[00:36:30] JV: True. True. I think that's why you knew that even if you were writing for Culture Trip, instead of National Geographic, you still had another pair of eyes on that piece of work. At that time, that's what I really needed, because I had no journalism training. I had a degree. I was used to writing essays, but I hadn't had any formal training. Again, with interviewing, the editor has really helped me and pointed me in the right direction as to what kind of questions I should be asking to get the right story. So to all of your listeners, I would recommend just getting your work out there. Don't be too precious about who it is you're writing for at the beginning, obviously, as long as they align with your ideas and certain things, but in terms of, is it a big publication, is a small publication, that doesn't matter. As long as you're telling a story that you want to tell and getting someone to read it for you as part of that package. That's a huge benefit.

[00:37:21] YD: Yes. Oh, my gosh, I love that. Thank you, Jess. Yeah, that's absolutely true. It's really important to just get it out there. Tell me as you were establishing yourself and growing your experience and perhaps starting to reach out to different publications. Did you see other women in this field? Was there someone that impacted you or did you notice the way people especially women were doing this work and how they were finding their voices and their confidence? Was there anyone who was an inspiration to you at that point?

[00:37:54] JV: Well, actually you, Yulia.

[00:37:57] YD: That's not why I asked this question, I promise.

[00:38:00] JV: It’s so true. When I said about social media is there aren't that many journalists that are travel writers. Perhaps they're they might post this is where I am, or here's my story, but there was never that much background. They're quite private people on social media. I didn't know what they were doing. I didn't know how they were getting to those stories. I didn't know how they were pitching. I think the first time I found I found your social media, and you were one of the first people that I'd found that was talking about your stories that you'd published, who you'd published for, a bit of background about how you'd found the story, or you'd post a photo, a bit of behind the scenes. The fact that you were a woman, as well. 

Yeah, it just seemed more accessible, if you see people that are doing similar things that you want to do, particularly because your stories or the kind of stories that I was trying to tell through Culture Trip and that I really wanted to do eventually for National Geographic and the BBC. I was seeing that you were working for them. I think a few times, I messaged you. I said, “How amazing. How did you do it?” You always replied. I think that does give you confidence. I did the same for other female journalists that I saw were working for the BBC, CNN. I would reach out to them on – Well, actually not reached out to them. I just stalk them on LinkedIn and see what they were doing. 

You know how in LinkedIn, you can see all their previous work experience? I would look at the different things that they've done. Where do I need to start, right? Look right at the bottom. What did they do? Who did they wrote for? I just tried to see as many different profiles as I could and try and match mine to those which now thinking about it, you should never just follow someone's LinkedIn profile, but it at least showed me a little path of how I could maybe get to my goal, which was to write for National Geographic and the BBC.

[00:39:52] YD: Goodness. First of all, thank you so much. I really appreciate that you – I would say I'm glad that I will say able to give that example, right, and to be an inspiration. That's really why I'm doing this work now with genius woman is specifically for that reason to be that inspiration for others. I think what you're pointing out is actually a real problem in this industry that you had to revert to stalking LinkedIn profiles because there is no path in this industry. No one is really showing us the way, right? I talk sometimes about if you want to become a lawyer or a partner in a law firm. There is a certain path for you. You know what you need to do, right? You need to serve as a clerk with a judge. You need to perhaps be in corporate law for a while. There's certain steps that you need to take on that path. In this industry is not quite like that, right? 

What my experience has been is that we're all poking around in the dark. Now, that's really the intention behind the genius women platform is to start revealing some of that and to start showing the path to people who are interested in this path, because that was my experience too that I really didn't know what next steps should I take. It was just really a lot of trial and error. I think actually, you were much smarter than me that you were doing that LinkedIn profile, figuring out the steps, because I was really just trial and error, trial and error. What do I do next? 

I think yeah, I think it's a real issue in this industry that there isn't a path, but I'm glad that you had the experience where the people that you were reaching out to, that there were sharing with you because I think we need more of that. We need less of competition. We need less of guarding the secrets. We need less exclusivity. We need more sharing, and we need more openness. I love that you experienced that on your path.

[00:41:38] JV: I couldn't agree more. I think with what I've been trying to do with my Instagram lives as well. That's with, no real agenda. I just want to get more travel journalists, more travel photographers and filmmakers to talk openly about their journeys, and about what the travel industry is like because you get this surely all the time, as well, but messages going, “How do you do this? How do you do this?” You think, in 2021, with all the information that there is in the internet, but people still don't understand what it is to be a travel writer. They don't, because in this industry, for some reason hasn't been as open as other industries. 

I think now with social media and the Internet, we don't have an excuse. We've got those channels now. We need to use those to welcome people into the industry. It's big enough for everyone. In fact, we need younger, fresh blood in the industry. We need different voices. It's been the same voices again, and again, particularly with Tommy travel TV. It's been the same, I don't know, six people doing TV shows. How is that possible? Yeah, I'm really excited about what you're doing. I'm hoping that in the next few years, we're going to have more travel journalists out there. Also inspiring more people to get out there and explore the world in a thoughtful way. That's our job to be spreading that message as much as possible, rather than keeping it closed.

[00:43:03] YD: I agree so much. I think this is a great segue to talking about what you're working on now. Some of the projects that are giving you joy and energy and excitement for this following year, because I just love what you're doing with your inside travel media series and for our listeners, we will link to it in our show notes. Definitely go check it out just is interviewing some incredible people in the industry. Definitely check it out, but tell us a little bit more about what you're working on now. What's bringing you joy at the moment in this still challenging time for the travel industry?

[00:43:40] JV: Yeah. It's been a bumpy ride these last few months. I was really, really fortunate. My career's picked up in the last year. I'm a baby in the travel journalism world. My first big break was with the BBC at the end of last year. Then throughout 2020, I've done some projects that just weren't stuff of dreams for me. National Geographic sent me to Italy to do a story on Parmesan for three days. I just got to eat Parmesan. I've done some stories for Adventure Travel Magazine. I get to hike through the Mexican jungle through on a hike that is very rarely open to outsiders. The indigenous groups they're very kindly allowed me to trek through their land and I got to learn so much about them. I've interviewed the first female drum maker in Belize. 

That last year and the year before that was really amazing. Going into this year obviously it's very uncertain with Commission's National Geographic for example, are still commissioning. I've been able to do some stories that I can do from my desk for example, stories about Bulgaria, because I spent a month there at the beginning of last year. For me it felt like I was just kicking off my career and then and then COVID hit. So I haven't been able to do the projects that I had in mind, however, it has given me time to focus on other things like growing inside travel media, doing these interviews every week with some incredible people. I mean, people that I thought would never speak to me. 

I've had a really good response to that. Actually, the series is booked out till the end of March. That's been a big project. I'm also looking at curating travel writing anthology. Putting together best American travel writings, but you've been publishing one, I think, for 20 years in the US, but in the UK, we've never had a best trouble writing anthology collection of 24 stories, or 25 stories that will be of the best long-form travel narratives published in UK media like National Geographic Traveler, like BBC travel publications like that. That's an exciting project that hopefully we'll see. It's still in the very early stages of talking to publishers and things, but we'll see if that happens. That's in the pipeline. Who knows what else? At the moment, it's impossible for me to plan any trips because we're in lockdown. No trips for me until at least the spring or the summer.

[00:46:11] YD: Yeah. I think that to your earlier point, no work and no experience goes wasted. I recognize the same feeling because I've also had it for 2020. My career was going to unfold in a really amazing way in 2020 like I had so many things that didn't come to fruition that I was planning. I also had a little bit of that fear like does that mean that I'm losing momentum really and that I almost have to start over in the sense of building that momentum again, but what I'm seeing is that no, not it's not really how it's unfolding for me. To your point, there are still best stories that you can write, and there are still things that you can do. I really don't feel that my career has been irrevocably hurt by this one year that we weren't able to travel as much if that makes sense. 

I'm sending similar wishes and thoughts to you if that's the case. It's incredible to hear about your curation project and all the amazing stories that you've already worked on. For listeners, I really encourage you to go check out Jess on Instagram and look up her stories. We will link to it in our profile. It's just a very inspirational, incredible example. What advice would you give to women who have aspirations for a travel journalist career who are just starting out on this journey?

[00:47:36] JV: Many things, what one can I choose, what people see on Instagram for example, it looks like us journalists with just always doing fun stuff and creating amazing stories. Actually, a big part of getting to where I was today was having some income. I knew I wanted to have enough time in my day to really dedicate a few hours of my day to pitching and to story creation. Even if at the end of the day, I got no reply back. I knew that those two hours, I could afford to take those two hours off, because I'd worked hard in the morning and had some money there and having that peace of mind and allowing yourself to give up a couple of hours for this, your dream project on the side, it was really important for me, because I wasn't too hard on myself. I needed to have that money. 

Another thing that helped with that was I chose to live in a cheaper place so that I could dedicate more time to writing and more time to pitching. I think sometimes when people hear the stories, that I just became a travel journalist, I gave up my job, I flew into the sunset, I went to Barbados, and now I'm making lots of money being a journalist. I don't think that we're always very honest about the realities of being a travel journalist. It's tough. Even now that I've written for National Geographic and the BBC and CNN, lots of other publications. I still struggle to make money from travel journalism at the end of the month. That's me being completely honest. 

I know people that made lots of money from it, but now while I'm still building a portfolio and still building a name for myself, it is hard for me to make money at the end of every month. How do I balance that is that I find work copywriting work that pays well. I don't just do copywriting. I will try and split that up with projects that really light me up and really excite me. I find that that balance at the moment has worked really well for me to have a little bit of income coming in stable. I'm not going crazy that I don't have enough money every month. 

Then the other half of my time is purely dedicated to those dream projects. As I'm starting to build my career, I think that's been key in being successful, because no one can pitch good stories if they're pulling their hair out in stress, because they can't pay their bills at the end of the month. So just really think about the practicalities. If you know, you want to be a travel journalist, know that you can do it, but just find a way to really balance what you love doing with the practical side of earning good money at the end of every month. 

[00:50:05] YD: I love that, Jess. Thank you so much. Everything you said right now is such a wisdom and such a beautiful and real way to talk about the reality of this career. I think what's really important that you said is that you dedicate two hours a day, let's say to pitching consistently, and to doing this work consistently because this is what I always talk about that consistency is what's going to get you results. It's not pitching once and not hearing back and saying, “Okay. It's not for me. I'm not good enough or whatever.” It's being consistent with it and really committing to this path. 

Then on the other side, it's figuring out a way you can support this dream, because I just love how you said that you're not going to be able to pitch good stories if you're pulling your hair out. It's so true, right? Your best work comes when you're in flow, when you're calm, when you're present, when you're spacious, not when you're stressed out. So I always say like, what does that mean for you? It's different for all of us, right? We all have different situations. We all have different financial needs and requirements. Figure out what that means for you. What can you do to support yourself while you're building this dream, but don't stop, right? Don't stop just because you have certain financial needs or requirements. You can still do it. We have to commit and you have to be able to do that consistently. 

I love the story that Elizabeth Gilbert says, right? She was a waitress for many, many, many years, as she was a writer. She called herself a writer. She was a writer, but she was so unapologetic about supporting herself with waitressing. That's a very real approach, right? It's not glamorizing it. It’s saying no, I'm a writer. This is my craft. I commit to it, but realistically, I have to support myself. I need some income. I'm also going to be waitressing. She did that even as she was publishing and all these magazines as well for years until Eat, Pray, Love became this huge success that it did, but I love that approach, right? Because it's really real and it says I'm going to commit to my craft. I committed no matter what other copywriting job I have, marketing job I have. This is my craft. This is my dream. I'm going to keep working at it while I support myself with other means of income. I think there's absolutely no shame in that. Absolutely no shame. I just love that you're sharing that with us. Thank you.

[00:52:22] JV: Absolutely, I couldn't agree more, because there's no shame, absolutely, no shame. I think a lot more journalists than we think. A lot more travel writers in particular are in the exact same position. They just haven't said so. That's the difference because if on your website, you're a travel journalist, you don't want to tell people on podcasts and things actually, to make a living. You're also doing someone's marketing for them because it doesn't add to the glamour. That's the truth of it. It's not, it's not beneficial to hide that part, because we're all in it together. It's particularly for people taking your courses and things. They should know that that's a very real part of it and that helps you grow. As a freelancer, you are your own boss, and you do have to juggle different projects at the same time.

[00:53:10] YD: Yeah, definitely. I would love to keep talking to you, Jess. We have so much to cover still. I think we need to do another conversation, but for today, we're going to close and what I would love to close with is this question that I always end with, it’s a big one, but how would you start thinking about what does it mean to be a woman who is stepping into her brilliance today?

[00:53:36] JV: Wow, there is so many aspects to being a brilliant woman. I think that what constitutes as a woman's stepping into her brilliance probably shifts and transforms depending on where that woman is in her journey and what her goals are. I think there are probably two key things that I've noticed in all the brilliant women that I admire. The first is women who are stepping into their brilliance have mastered or even somehow thriving of fear and uncertainty. We've mentioned fear in this before and I think fear comes up a lot in your podcast series, because it is so, so important. When you see amazing women doing incredible things are immediate response is, “Wow, she's so fearless.” Or, “Wow, she's so brave.” 

As soon as you start digging a little deeper into their stories, you realize that woman who seemed amazing to you isn't fearless at all. She feels fear. In fact, she probably feels more fear than most people, because she's doing something extraordinary. She's pushing boundaries and pushing boundaries is very, very scary. That's a human emotion, but brilliant women for me are those who are using that fear as a fire or fuel as motivation to then chase their dreams. That's the difference. We will feel it, but we're doing it anyway. That's a huge thing. 

Then the second part and again, I think it's been mentioned here before as well is action. All of us have dreams and aspirations. Once we've got that fear, the difference between a brilliant woman and a woman who isn't stepping into brilliance at that time is someone who acts on her dreams. She talks the talk, but she also walks the walk. It’s to not be cliché though, but it's so true. It's someone who feels fear, and acts on that fear and uses fear as motivation to get her to where she wants to be.

[00:55:28] YD: This is such a beautiful ending to our conversation today. I really, really appreciate it. I couldn't have said it better myself. I have to bring you back because I love talking to you today. I think that there is a lot more wisdoms and beautiful things that we can draw out in our conversations. Thank you so much.

[00:55:48] JV: Thanks, Yulia. It's been an honor to be on here. I love what you're doing. So keep going. Guys, you need to take Yulia’s advice. She knows what she’s doing.

[OUTRO]

[00:55:59] YD: Thank you so much for listening to our show. I hope you enjoyed this conversation with Jessica. If you did, please take a moment to share a review over podcast on Apple podcasts or share it on your socials. Every little bit helps. We are working hard on creating a show that's useful and inspiring to you and would be so grateful if you helped us reach more people who would enjoy it, too. Thanks, again. I'll see you next week.

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