S8 E84: Insights On Travel Editors & Tourism Boards

Get the show’s transcript

YD: “When we think about ideas on sustainability and travel, that they all really want specific stories, not broad stories. So, meaning don't tell me that I have to take a train versus a plane to be more sustainable. Tell me about a specific train company that's doing something interesting in that space.”

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:19] YD: Well, welcome back, everyone to Travel Media Lab Podcast. I'm your host, Yulia Denisyuk, an award-winning travel photographer, writer, storyteller, community builder, podcaster, and entrepreneur. I work with publications like National Geographic Traveler, and the New York Times, Lonely Planet, and more, and travel to interesting places around the world producing stories that I'm really, really excited about.

Travel Media Lab is my platform for helping you break into the travel media space where we share insights, tips, advice and stories from people working in the industry. Today, I want to bring to you a discussion we recently had inside The Circle, our membership in which we help you get your stories published with ongoing support, encouragement, opportunities, and the community as you establish yourself in the travel media space.

This February, in The Circle, I shared the insights gleaned from the IMM Travel Media Conference I attended a few weeks earlier. And if you've been listening to this podcast for a while, you know that IMM Travel Media is a conference that I really recommend to anyone who is just starting in the industry to pay attention to, because that's where you get a lot of contacts and a lot of really important conversations about the future of the industry and about how to do our work better.

So, this is a conversation that we're going to be hearing today. It comes from The Circle, from our membership. And just a note that every conversation from The Circle that you hear on our podcast is always shared with permission from our members. We never share anything without first asking our members if they're comfortable for us to be sharing any of our conversations on the podcast. We dedicated a whole hour to discussing what I learned as the editor panel I attended during the conference, as well as my observations of the travel media industry.

We also discussed The Circle wide challenge, pitch challenge, we ran at the beginning of the year, during which our members sent a lot of pitches out, and I'm just so, so proud of their effort. This whole workshop and all of our workshops and conversations, in addition to all the support and community that we offer, are available to you when you join us over at travelmedialab.com/circle.

Before we get into this episode, I want to share with you something our listener, Erin, shared recently on Instagram about our podcast. She said, “I didn't understand why I was struggling to connect with the photos I was posting. I have so many incredible travel memories, but sharing trip photos sometimes feels insufficient. Then it clicked. I've been sharing content, not stories. When we go on a trip, going there isn't a story on its own. Compelling stories have a point of view and spark curiosity. I don't actually like being at the center of what I share. I like to highlight the nature scenery, moments of connection, and things we learn when we travel. An episode of the Travel Media Lab podcast called Crafting Compelling Stories that comes from season two”, that's episode 17, “Really resonated with me on this topic. Following our curiosity and passions is one powerful way to start creating stories.”

And then she added a quote for me, from the podcast, which said, “None of us are good at creating compelling stories in the beginning, and that shouldn't stop you because the only way for us to get better is to actually do the work.” Thank you so much, Erin, for sharing how our podcast resonated with you. We appreciate you. You can connect with Erin on Instagram. Her handle is @erinisexploring. And you can always connect with us @travelmedialab and @insearchofperfect. Share how our podcast is helping you on your journey, and we might give you a shout out too. I just love, love, love hearing from our listeners.

All right, now, let's go into this episode. I hope you enjoy it.

[EPISODE]

[00:04:31] YD: So, what we're going to do today is I'm going to share with you the insights, some of the learnings that I got from the conference last week that I attended. But before we do that, I wanted to take a look at our pitch challenge, because we are entering our last week of this pitch challenge and I just wanted to get a few thoughts on those of you who are here and who are attending the call today on how is it going for you. I also see, in our circle wide pitch challenge document right now, I also see that there are some folks who haven't put in all of their results yet from the previous weeks. So, Ree, if you're listening to this later on, please take a moment to come and tell us how you did in the documents. And Katie, you as well, I think some of your data is missing.

[00:05:21] K: I wish that were true, but I am making progress.

[00:05:25] YD: Awesome. Awesome. That's the key, right? It doesn't matter what the progress is, as long as you're making it. So yeah, just whenever you have some time, please update the document. And then when we are meeting next week, next Wednesday, is when we're going to be doing like a final, let's say overview, final sort of how did it go for you? How did each way go? How do you feel? All that good stuff.

But right now, I see that Nicole, you're just on fire with how many pitches you've sent, and you have about four left to your goal, which is awesome. I see that Susan has sent a pitch out last week. Yay, Susan. That's awesome. Ilaria as well. Ilaria, looks like she met her goal. Is that right? Yes. Ilaria was on fire last week as well. So, if you're listening to this later, Ilaria, congratulations. Amazing work. Feel free to add some more pitches this week so that you're even sending more out if you have other ideas left.

Joleen has sent quite a few pitches on it too, and, so has Shelley. Oh, my goodness, you guys are all doing just so amazing. I'm super excited to see this. Yeah, if either of you, Nicole or Katie, if either of you wants to sort of comment on how it's going so far, let me know. Otherwise, we'll talk about it more in more detail next week when we're wrapping up the challenge.

[00:06:51] N: I’ll just say, it's going well. It's pushed me a lot. And I am going to send some more out this week. So, I should meet my goal. But thanks. I don't know if I've ever done this many. So, thank you.

[00:07:03] YD: Amazing, amazing. Isn't it interesting how that works, that when you have this sort of environment of doing this all together, you're like, “Oh, I better get this in.” That's really good. I'm glad to hear that. And of course, Nicole, you're on fire right now. You've had two acceptances, VVC travel, and Toronto Star, and we can't wait to see those stories live. I know you were sharing just before we started recording that you've already gotten the revisions back. So, it's moving, it's coming out, and that's super, super exciting. So, we're very proud of you. 

[00:07:33] N: Thank you.

[00:07:35] YD: Awesome, Katie? Oh, sorry. No worries, no worries. If you want to add something, feel free. If not, that's cool.

[00:07:42] K: Next week, next week I will have all my docs.

[00:07:46] YD: Perfect. Perfect. Okay, sounds good. So, what we're going to do today is we're going to spend some time talking about some of the insights that I've gotten from attending the IMM Travel Media Conference last week. And as you guys know, I always advocate for that conference as one of the best places to be when you want to make those connections with tourism boards, and with – yeah, mostly tourism boards, PR companies, but also publications because editors are attending that conference as well.

They're not attending – they're basically attending for the same reason we are, which is to make connections with tourism boards, right? So, you're not necessarily meeting them in that structured day of networking. You're meeting them in between, or you're meeting them during breaks, or you’re meeting them during lunch, et cetera, et cetera. So, it's kind of like that.

And for those of you who will be listening to this later, or who are new in The Circle, this is our monthly call that we do at the beginning of the month, where we sort of set the theme for the month if we're working on something particular or it's also when I share some of these insights and observations that I've had over the previous month. So, that's what we're doing today. And usually, the way this Travel Media IMM Conference is structured, and it was no different this time, is that the first day is dedicated to a summit to which certain media members get invited to, and it's like a shorter, or sorry, smaller event in which there is a series of panels, series of discussions with tourism boards, with editors, with partners in the industry, but it's really just like a panel discussion. There's not much networking happening there.

And then on day two, is when we do these speeds networking, where occasions, I guess, which is really intense, because it starts at 9am, and it goes until 5.30am and it's in 15-minute increments. So, it's 9am to 9.15am, you have an appointment. 9.15am to 9.30am, you have an appointment, and it goes like that. There are some breaks and there's lunch. But at the end of the day, we're all just completed exhausted.

In past conferences, I've had somewhere between 20 to 24 appointments on that day. Last week, I had fewer appointments because I was much more sort of strategic with my time and I blocked some slots, because usually, I'm back to back to back to back, and I just can't. Because by the end of the day, you're just really exhausted. You can barely speak. So, this time went a bit more relaxed for me, because I was able to take more breaks. But that's really, that's a really intense sort of day in which you make a lot of connections with people, and you got a ton of business cards, and you have now a ton of follow-up to do with all these tourism boards and everything like that.

We have a full workshop on how to prepare for IMM, and how to work with tourism boards. So, I'm not going to spend too much time on this today. But I'll just say really quickly that I’ve once again seen how important it is that you have a really good understanding of what your niche is, what your focus is, and what you want to cover. Because when you come to those 15-minute appointments, if you don't have that, the tourism boards are going to give you a very generic spiel, a very generic paragraph or an overview of what's happening in their destination, that they're going to give to everyone, right? So, everybody's kind of come away with exactly the same information.

And then imagine if we extend this out further to then pitching stories based on that. Everybody's going to be pitching the same stories as well, because you're all getting the same information, right? It's really important to come to these events with a really good understanding of what is it that you want, right? What kind of stories are interesting to you? Trust me, when they hear that, when you give them that overview of yourself, their ears perk up, because most people don't actually do that. Most journalists that come to these events, they don't tell the tourism boards, here's what my specialty is. Here's what my focus is, right? They're just sort of used to this sort of more general overview.

I noticed again, this time, that when I told them, “This is what I'm specifically interested in.” They're like, “Oh, I have a story just for you.” Or, “Oh, thank you so much, because it helps me narrow it down so much.” So, those conversations are super important. Again, look through their library of workshops and recordings that we have, because we, last year, dedicated quite a bit of time to how to prepare for IMM, how to go through that. So, next time you are going to one of those events, you can be better prepared as well.

But what I want to spend most of the time talking about today is sharing with you the insights I got during the first day when we had that summit, and particularly there was a very interesting editor panel where three or four editors came to the stage, and they were talking about their publications, and they're talking about what they're looking for, and some specific questions. So, that's what I'm going to share with you guys today, and then we'll have some time at the end to cover some questions as we go through it.

The three editors I'm going to talk about right now are Nikki Vargas, who is the editor at Fodors Travel, who by the way, has been on the podcast. So, if you haven't yet listened to that interview with her, please do. She's just amazing. Caroline Trefler, who is an editor at Lonely Planet, and Amanda Finnegan, who is an editor at Washington Post's, By The Way, column, which is their travel column. And when I post this up, I'll share the links to Caroline, well, all three of them. Nikki, Caroline, and Amanda's Instagram handles, because it's always good to follow and see sort of what they have going on.

So, that was the panel. And then they were asked some very specific questions, and I thought some of them were super interesting. So, I'll just go ahead and share them now. The first question that they had was what piques your interest in pitching? So, when these editors are getting pitches, what is it that they're looking for? What is it that their specific publication is focused on right now?

For Fodors Travel, what they're looking for are, how to pieces. How to travel Europe on a budget? For example. It's a very bad example, because it's very broad, but you get the point. It's a how to do something relevant to travel. They're looking for identity stories, for example, traveling in Europe as a disabled individual, right? What does that look like? Personal narratives. So interestingly, all this time for the past six weeks or so, I've been talking about how publications are moving away from personal narratives and more and so hard reportage.

Well, here's one publication that is very interested in personal narratives. Destination inspiration, trends, and news. So, if anything interesting is new and happening at a particular destination you want to write about, if there is any sort of bigger trends that you are uncovering in a particular destination, then they want to see those pitches as well. By the way, feel free to just – as you have questions going on, as you have questions come up, actually, feel free to ask me right away. We don't even have to wait until the end of the chat today. But we can make it more interactive.

[00:15:09] N: I have a question about the Fodors. I saw that you put a comment in about my other personal essay I'm trying to get out there. So, is this new to them? Because I don't know if I ever seen personal essays on their website. I don't know if that's something that I'm used to seeing.

[00:15:27] YD: Personal narrative, right? So, it's maybe not so much – I guess, interestingly, question. The difference between personal matters and the –

[00:15:35] N: Yes, good question.

[00:15:36] YD: But a personal narrative is maybe something that touches upon – an identity story is a personal narrative, right? It's a story about how I traveled to Spain as a woman in my 40s, or something. I don't know, just making this up. But yeah, I think, I don't know, off the top of my head, any specific example comes, but I'm pretty sure I've seen them publish pieces from a personal point of view before. Yeah, she definitely said that they're looking for those as well. 

And then your other question, Nicole, on Lonely Planets. Yes. I'll get to it in a second. That was exactly the question I had too and I actually approached the editor after she spoke, and I asked her exactly that question. So, stay tuned.

So, what peaks Lonely Planet or what kind of stories does Lonely Planet look for right now? They're looking for local experiences from a local point of view. And they really – she really, really stressed that. I think that makes sense for them strategically, as a guidebook publisher that they really want those local perspectives, but she was saying that if you stay, if you're based somewhere, or if you stay there for a long time, we really want to hear from you. So, they're not so much wanting to hear from somebody who just came in for a few days and experienced the place and they want to pitch about it. They really want those local voices, and local perspectives, right?

Now, how can you get around that if you're not, for example, stationed in Cairo, or based in Cairo, but you really want to do a story on Cairo? How do you get around that requirement? Well, you make sure that in your pitch, and in your plan, and then your story, you have local perspectives, and you are actually talking to people who are from there, right? Who are providing some of that point of view for you. And they're looking for that both on their digital side, which is where they publish their stories, but also on the guidebooks side.

So, actually in our top five that I posted today, there was a call from a Lonely Planet looking for contributors in brands, specifically. But when they're when they're working with contributors on the digital side, it's always a good way into their guidebook writing side. Because guidebooks paid very well actually. It's a big project and it pays quite well. I think it's a really nice way to sort of start on the digital side, do several articles for them, establish yourself as an expert, or like a local expert in that destination, and then you can transition to the guidebooks side as well. If you want, by the way.

Because for me, for example, I've never been interested in guidebook writing even though I know it pays well. It's a big project. I don't know I've never been interested in that side of travel writing where I have to give very specific recommendations on where to go and what to do. But if that's your jam, then definitely pay attention to Lonely Planet. They're also not so much interested in listicles and roundups, as they are in more experiential stories. So again, stories about experiences, and narrative-driven stories are what they're looking for.

And then Washington Post, By The Way, which is, again, their travel column. If you're not familiar with that column, it's a column for a very sort of frugal traveler, and their guidelines are part of our documents in The Circle, so you can check it out later on. But the kinds of stories that this publication is looking for is interestingly – it was very interesting to me how she put it. Stories about the reader, not the writer. So, they want stories that will be interesting, and about the reader, not the writer. So, sounds like they don't really want any personal narratives. They want stories about frugal travelers and practical travelers, right? nd the practical process of traveling.

They also want local perspectives. No helicoptering in, and they are interested in stories that talk about the practical process of traveling. So, getting from A to B or maybe it's about efficient train travel, or maybe it's about figuring out how to use miles for your travel, right? Things like that. And then finally, they're also looking for breaking news in the travel industry and larger trends stories. So, you can sort of see the trend here, right? Nobody wants helicoptering in, which I think is great. But what that means for us, because sometimes we do have to take those shorter trips. What that means for us is that we really need to make sure that when we do that, we have local perspectives or local connections that we can tap for the story so, that it's not just our sort of short-term experience that we're talking about, but something much deeper, because that seems to be the trend that all of them have mentioned. They don't want that.

Specifically, with Lonely Planet, right now, if you go to their guidelines page, it says that we're closed for submissions. So, after the panel, I approached her and I asked her specifically about that. She says that, yes, it's because we're restructuring right now. We're figuring some things out, but we're opening in soon. So, stay tuned. That page will be open soon. And by the way, again, on Twitter, also they're posting opportunities because like the one that I just saw, where they're looking for in France, specific writers as well. It's like, right now, it sounds like they're tapping for specific projects. But pretty soon, they will be open to just ongoing submissions as well.

Okay. Another question that they were asked was, how are you approaching, writing about or talking about sustainability in your coverage? So, sustainability overall was a big theme for this year's conference. Not surprisingly, right? It's a big topic nd it's a big discussion overall in the industry. This was the question. How does your publication think about covering sustainability? Some of the trends, I'm not going to break it out by publication, but some of the trends that most of them touched on, where, for example, if you're writing about a sustainable hotel, don't just tell me it's a sustainable hotel. Tell me why it's sustainable and how it's sustainable, right? Tell me some of that deeper story about what the hotel has been doing, some of its journey towards sustainability is what they're interested in.

They also want writers to pitch some ideas about what should the readers do to make their travels more sustainable? Because we are the experts. We travel so much more than people who are not in the industry. So, they look to us for ideas, for opinions, for trends, perhaps investigations on what should the reader do to make their travels more sustainable. They're also interested in stories about economic sustainability, right? So, keeping the money that comes into the travel industry, inside local communities. Making those operations more sustainable. So, if you have any kind of stories or ideas about that, about economic sustainability, they're all ears as well.

Washington Post in particular called out that they really want to see ideas on how climate change affects the reader’s travels, rather than what can readers do to affect climate change, which was an interesting sort of call out. So, the way I translated that, and understood that, is that the readers are not necessarily interested in reducing the number of flights or taking a train, instead of a flight, which is what you can do to improve the climate change situation. But they're more interested in stories that say, because of climate change, well, wait a minute, that's kind of the same thing, isn't it? Wait, I'm getting confused now. How climate change affects my travels versus what I can do to affect climate change. Wow, I just totally like, confused myself there, with that sentence.

[00:23:28] K: Maybe what they mean is like, I wanted to go to this place, but they're dealing with this issue because of climate change. So, less about like the – the places you’re traveling for that. Because when I saw that on that, but that’s what I was thinking.

[00:23:43] N: Like skiing in Europe, because you maybe are making plans to go skiing, and there's no snow. So, it's terrible. So, how is that affecting their readers? What else can they do while they're there?

[00:23:53] YD: Well, thank you guys.

[00:23:54] N: Is that's kind of what you mean? I don't know.

[00:23:56] YD: Yeah. Exactly. It's yeah, how are destination – maybe better way to put it is like how our destinations being changed and what we need to think about as travelers, rather than what is the specific action that I can do today to affect climate change? Because she was saying, basically, how the reader, and we kind of had a chuckle about it. Well, it's kind of a depressing thought, actually, that people feel powerless to affect climate change on the individual level. They don't feel like their individual actions are really enough or that they're going to make a difference. So, it sounded like, again, that's specific to Washington Post that their readers have a bit of a fatigue when it comes to that. But they are interested in stories about again, how destinations are being affected and how a travel in general is being affected. And all of them made this point that when we think about ideas on sustainability and travel, that they all really want specific stories, not broad stories. So, meaning, don't tell me that I have to take a train versus a plane to be more sustainable. Tell me about a specific train company that's doing something interesting in that space, right?

I think that sort of sentiment goes toward any pitches we do, right? We want specific, not broad because that's how we make a pitch and an idea really strong. But yeah, they stressed that out for that particular question as well.

Then we had a very interesting discussion. We had a discussion about press trips, about them working with writers who go on press trips. And both Washington Post and Lonely Planet said, unequivocally, “No, we don't accept press trips”, which I actually – that was my first time learning that. I felt Lonely Planet does work with people who go on press trips, but sounds like they don't.

For Fodors, it was an unequivocal yes, because we understand the reality of traveling and how, if you go somewhere, and you have to pay your own way, then you're basically barely breaking, even you're basically not making any money at all. So, they are like, “Yes, we totally are open to press trips, so come to us.” And from that conversation, it's migrated into a very interesting conversation on rates, because a very awesome writer in the audience, her name is Lola Mendez, and by the way, she's going to be a guest on the podcast. So, stay tuned for that. She actually raised that question. Well, tell me about your rates then? If you don't work with writers who go on press trips, then how much are you paying your writers for them to be able to afford their own travel and do this work?

Funnily enough, Washington Post dodged the question completely. They didn't answer what the rates were. But they did say that they pay the writers well, so we just have to trust that and maybe pitch them and have somebody from our community work with them so that we can see what they actually pay them. Lonely Planet mentioned that they pay between $300 to $400 per article on their digital site, and of course, guidebook projects can go depending on how big of a section you are editing, or if you're editing the whole book, it can go into thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars to do a guidebook. Then, Fodors mentioned that their rate is about the same as Lonely Planet, $300 to $400 per article.

So, that was the conversation that we had with these three. And one of the reasons why I think it's so cool to attend these conferences is that you see this editor right there, flesh and blood, so to speak, right? Many of them came from our side, many of them have been freelance writers, and then they became editors, so they understand all the dynamics that we have to go through as writers. They all said, “Pitch us. Pitch us. If you have ideas that fit into what we're describing here, please pitch us.” So, I thought that was a super interesting panel, and I thought it was pretty helpful. So yeah, I wanted to share it with you guys.

Now, there was one other different panel that we talked about that I will cover next. But before we do, any sort of thoughts or any questions or ideas about what I covered so far, with Nikki, Caroline, and Amanda?

[00:28:06] N: I guess what I was going to say is like, I've kind of discovered that too, when I've been looking at this different pitching guidelines. I'm surprised like BBC, the story I produced, I think they were one of the only people who didn't have a story on the Bhutan Trail because Bhutan hosted that press trip and I went on my own. But it is frustrating for us as writers because it's hard. It's hard to like, manage a trip. I mean, that was an expensive trip, and I just happened to get as like a story out of it. But I find it a little frustrating and hard.

[00:28:43] YD: Well, it's not even a little frustrating, right? It's a lot frustrating. It’s a lot frustrating, and interesting, because what they're talking about, and the reason why they have this policy, all of them, Washington Post, now we know Lonely Planet. And also, by the way, New York Times has a very strict –

[00:29:00] N: Yeah, New York Times.

[00:29:01] YD: They say that is because they want to gain editorial – oh, my goodness. What's wrong with my words today?

[00:29:09] N: Yeah, I know what you mean, thought. They don’t want it to be like –

[00:29:12] YD: Integrity. Thank you. So, they want to maintain editorial integrity, and that's why they don't do it. But at the same time, those same editors then the next day, came and sat and network with those tourism boards too, by the way. I asked him actually about that. I said, I asked one of them. I was like, “Wait a minute. So, you you're not working with the writers who go on press trips and work with tourism boards, but you're going and talking to tourism boards now?” And she said that, “Yes. We are asking them for ideas. We're asking them for news and trends and what's happening with them. We're going to go ahead and write about it ourselves, and we're going to send our writer on our own.” I'm like, “Well, you could argue that that tourism board might feed you something, and like that editorial integrity maybe is not there?”

I don't know. It's so interesting because the other interesting question to ask there is, then who does this policy – who does this policy restrict from writing and from doing these things, right? It's only people who are kind of independently wealthy, or who are able to go out there and travel on their own, who can write some of these stories, and that's just not cool. I think that's why Fodors and so many others are like, “No. We understand how this works. You need to have that support of a tourism board.”

The other thing that I always think about is that in this industry, reputation matters a lot, a whole lot. So, as a writer, if I go with a tourism board, and let's say I have an experience that was not good, or a hotel, that was not good. If I write praises to that experience, well, my reputation is kind of ruined. Because most of these trips, I'm not the only one who's been there, right? Usually, there's a lot of other people on that trip and we were all part of that experience. And in this industry, people talk also, and a lot of times editors also go to these press trips as well, right? So, you can have, for example, one of the last press trips I was on there was a couple of writers and photographers, but there was also an editor from a UK publication that was there. 

So, when you have an experience like that, and then you write something that wasn't true, or that wasn't the case, then I don't know how your own reputation can survive that. I think, a lot of writers actually feel this way very strongly in this industry, that we are sort of separating the fact that yes, we need to be supported by the tourism board to have the experience. But that doesn't mean that we're going to sing praises to the tourism board, or whatever partners when we experience it. It's not an easy conversation to have. It's a tricky conversation to have, right? Because there are a lot of different arguments on both sides of this, that you can do. But at the end of the day, if it's not economically possible for most of us to travel on our own dime, and to do this work, then again, who does this industry, exclude? It excludes most of all, basically. 

So, it's interesting to see that there's fewer and fewer publications that still have that policy. Most of them have become much more friendly to press trips. But yeah, that was an interesting conversation. Any other thoughts or questions on this? Are you going to be pitching now Washington Post or pitching Fodors? You should definitely pitch Fodors. But oh, the other thing that Nikki mentioned is that they have an editor called Eva, I forgot her last name. Eva takes it a point to sit down once a week, every week, go through every single page in the inbox and respond to it, which I thought was so amazing. Because we also talk a lot about how oftentimes we don't get any responses and it's so frustrating. Well, Fodors will respond.

Somebody had a question, maybe it was you Nichole, or someone else in the group, why shouldn't we follow up with Fodors? And Katie, you actually responded to this, because they respond to you in the order in which that email was received. So, when you follow up, it puts it back to the back of the queue. So, that's why, just send them that initial email and just wait, eventually, they will get back to you. I thought that was just so cool because their inbox gets overwhelmed as well, just like any other editor, and she said, they literally make it a point that we're going to sit down and do it on a regular basis. So yeah, work with Fodors, if you can. They're super cool.

All right, the other point of discussion that I wanted to add to this conversation, which was also during that first day of the Travel Media IMM Conference, a separate panel, that was run by three or four different representatives from various indigenous communities around the world. Well, there was Canada, Australia, and US, actually, who were represented in that board. And I thought that was such a wonderful panel. I thought I should share this with you as well because this is actually a question that we've also been covering a lot inside The Circle, if you remember, right? What gives me the mandate to tell the story? Is this my story to tell? Particularly when thinking about some of these communities, right?

So, here's what they had to say on this subject. The particular question was, how can media work with indigenous communities? Or what should media consider when they want to work with indigenous communities? And they said that, first of all, you should come in with the mentality that you are here to amplify stories that already exist. You're not here to tell your own story about this community. And that was really interesting to me, because this is a question that I, personally, individually, struggle with a lot. We even had this discussion in The Circle recently, right Nicole? I think it was you, thinking about, well, should I include the LGBTQ camps in the story if I'm not part of that community? Right?

I think it's an interesting conversation because it's like, well, you have to be part of every single identity in order to write about that identity. I think it really depends. It really depends on the story. In a lot of the cases, you can view yourself as a conduit, not the person who tells us their own opinions and perspectives on this, right? So, in this case, amplifying rather than telling stories is really that. You're there to listen, you're there to convey the message or convey the story. But exactly how they told you to convey it. Not adding your own things. Not trying to tell your own story here, if that makes sense.

So, for me, it's a subtle but very important difference, actually. I even started thinking about some of my ideas that I had, and some things that I haven't actually pitched, because I'm like, “Well, I don't know if I shouldn't be the one pitching it.” But now, with that insight, I'm like, well, again, if I view myself as a conduit to the story, I'm just the writer who takes notes, takes notes from this person that I'm interviewing, and then that's the story that I'm telling. Then in that case, I think you can do that with anyone really. If you approach it with that humility and that respect, that I'm just a conduit here, I'm not here to bring my own biases or whatever, into this conversation.

That was their point, which I thought was really great. They said, also, that the media should ask a lot of questions, which also makes sense, right? We don't want again, to assume things. We don't want to sort of bring our own biases into this work, and you want to ask yourself where does the ownership of the story lie? Who is the owner of the story? Again, am I the owner of the story? Or are these people who are telling me, who I'm interviewing, who I'm engaging with, are they the owners of the story?

It's interesting, because again, once you have that mindset, and once you view it through that lens, I feel like all kinds of doors open up. Because again, I'm not the owner of the story, right? This community is the owner, and this is what they're telling me, and it’s my sort of honor to be the conduit for the story, which I thought was very helpful. They say, be open-hearted. Listen, well. Ask a lot of questions. Take your time. Build relationships. They stress that so much. I actually talked about this before too, rwith that Bedouin community example in Jordan that you want to – especially if you want to do some sort of bigger stories, or stories that shine a light on a culture or on a community. You don't want to just to reach out to somebody in a cold email and say, “Hey, give me give me everything about your culture and your community.” You really want to start building those relationships. You really want to be genuinely interested in that community and in their culture, and what they have to say. Rather than just to be very sort of cringe-inducing. You don't want to just score some points by doing an indigenous story, right? Because that would be like the worst-case scenario that you're doing this because of that because it's cool to do that.

I think, that it's all about the intention with which we come to these stories, right? If we're genuinely interested, if we're spending time, if we're building relationships, then you can sense that, right? People can sense how you show up authentically or not in spaces. So, if you take the time to build relationships to be authentic with your intentions, then these communities are very open to welcoming you in and sharing some of these stories. Because that was another question that I always have, is that well, why? Why would they want to do this? Why would they want to open up like that?

So, an outsider, let's say from a community, and I think that's why. If you're genuine, if you're friendly, if you're genuinely curious about this culture in this community, then I think they can definitely sense that.

Finally, the Indigenous Tourism Association of Canada, they have a resource up on their website that talks a lot about some of these things. And about more even than then we could mention. So, they have a media style guide, by the way, which talks about language, for example, right? The language that you should use, and some of the questions you want to ask. And I'll link to that as well when posting this call so you guys can check it out. But overall, I thought it was super interesting and super helpful.

Because I for sure, I'm always thinking about that. But some of the stories that I want to do is like definitely grappling with some of these questions, and I thought that was a good sort of entry point into that discussion. So yeah, that was my takeaway. Those were my takeaways from the conference, from the summits. It was really an awesome time. I saw so many people in person that I've only met via Zoom and that was really cool. So, definitely recommend attending. Plan on this next year. Definitely, for you, Katie and Nicole, as you have some pieces published, and hopefully I'll meet you there in person and at the conference next year. That should be cool. Any thoughts on this last part that we discussed on media working with indigenous communities?

[00:40:06] N: I was going to say that I think that's great. Like what you said, I noticed the Canadian indigenous community, their website is so amazing. There's like so much information. And even when I was doing that research on Hawaii, they had their own toolkit as well. So, I thought it was really helpful. If I'm ever going to work with communities like that, in the future, I'm going to make sure to reach out and look and do some research before I do. So, thanks.

[00:40:32] YD: Yeah, that's actually a great point, Nicole. Thanks for bringing that up, because that's exactly it. That should be your first step in figuring out where to go next with some of these story ideas is, in a lot of cases, not all, by the way, because we talked about this too, at the panel that they were saying how US tourism boards are sort of lagging behind their Canadian and Australian counterparts in bringing some of these to the forefront, and making sure that the indigenous communities in the US are really, part of this effort and actually part of the tourism board, right? So, there’s still work to do there. But yes, in Canada, and in Australia, they're doing much better work in being the first point of contact, being that point for resource. So yeah, that's a really good point, Nicole.

[00:41:25] K: I was just going to say, I think it's interesting, a lot of things you've talked about today, like whether it's indigenous communities, or more publications, saying we don't just want people like dropping in, right? But this idea of getting to know people and be telling their stories through your writing, seems to be like a theme that touches on a lot of these areas.

[00:41:42] YD: Yes. That's really it. And that's where developing yourself as a local expert in your area is something that can be a good strategy to pursue as well, right? Because I mean, Katie, you live in New York. There are so many things happening in New York. Why not start establishing yourself? If that's indeed your sort of plan of where you want to be, for the next, let's say, three to five years or so. Or Nicole, for you, Minneapolis. I see this local expertise was always important. It's more important than ever now to do that. So, why not? Why not do that? And that's why I'm moving to Barcelona and will start becoming – not right away, of course, but hopefully, will start becoming an expert there as well. But yeah, that's really true.

Amazing friends. Well, hopefully, this was a helpful discussion for you. I was frankly, taking notes like this when I was sitting there. I was very excited to share those notes with you. So hopefully, they are helpful to you as you start thinking about your own pitches going forward. And, again, our last week of the pitch challenge is this week. So, let's finish it strong, and I'm super proud of all your efforts so far. You guys are doing just so well and it's been so cool to see everyone's pitches. I'm looking forward to next week when we have our wrap up of the pitch challenge and sort of see how we did and what we learned, and all that,

Katie says, “I have a quick New York Times question when you're done with this.” Okay, awesome. Well, actually, you can ask it now. That's fine.

[00:43:29] K: I tried to search some of the places in The Circle. I didn't think I saw anyone comment on this. So, the New York Times doesn't have pitch guidelines. So, does that mean they're not open for pitches? Do you know how they specifically work?

[00:43:48] YD: They are open for pitches. There is an editor who's been on the travel desk for a very long time, and she is notorious for putting your emails and even responding sometimes, but then kind of ghosting you. So, I will share her email in The Circle after we post it up. I've gotten close to working with her a few times, but then she just kind of disappeared on me. I think her name is Amy, if I remember correctly. But I'll look it up. But yeah, there are no guidelines for times, but they do have a travel desk and they do receive pitches. And in a lot of cases, she even responds to your pitches, and in some cases, she's even interested in your pitches. But then, she kind of falls off. At least that's been my experience. But yeah, definitely pitch her. If you have a story that you think is a fit to their travel vertical and what they're doing, then yeah. Why not? Absolutely.

[00:44:52] K: Well, I'm trying to like have the mindset of starting big, like, don't be afraid of that, and they did 36 hours in Dakar, but they haven't done a lot of specific stories. So, I'm hoping, we'll see.

[00:45:05] YD: Definitely pitch them, but definitely share the pitch in the –

[00:45:09] K: Yes.

[00:45:10] YD: Awesome. Yay. Katie pitching New York Times. I love it. I love it. Awesome. We’ll have a wonderful rest of your week, everyone and I will –

[00:45:22] N: Thank you so much.

[00:45:23] YD: I will see you inside our group. Yes. Thank you. Thanks, Nicole. Thanks. Katie. Okay, bye.

[00:45:28] K: Bye.

[OUTRO]

[00:45:30] YD: Thank you so much for listening today. I hope you enjoyed this workshop brought to you by our membership, The Circle. If you have a dream of getting your travel stories published and working with some of the most exciting travel publications out there, consider joining us in The Circle. Our members have been published in some of the most incredible publications out there like Condé Nast Traveler, like BBC Travel, and many others.

In The Circle, we have conversations like the one you just heard on a regular basis, and we provide a whole lot of support, opportunities, and community in the travel media space. You can get started with The Circle for as little as $27 a month. Visit travelmedialab.com/circle to learn more. Thank you again for listening today and stay tuned for next week.

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