S8 E89: Advice for Aspiring Journalists with Sarah Khan, Award-Winning Travel Journalist

Get the show’s transcript

“SK: Even when I was interviewing for this role, I was just kind of like, what am I doing? And then I'm just like, wait, I earned this. But for whatever reason, I think a lot of us get intimidated and talk ourselves out of things. So, when it comes to pitching new editors, you should always go out there. All it takes is one great pitch to catch someone's eye. And if it doesn't pitch it somewhere else, somebody will be interested.”

[INTRODUCTION]

[00:00:22] YD: Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Travel Media Lab podcast. I'm your host, Yulia Denisyuk, an award-winning travel photographer, writer, storyteller, community builder, podcaster, and entrepreneur.  Working with publications like National Geographic Traveler, the New York Times, and more traveling to interesting places around the world and producing stories that I'm excited.

 Travel Media Lab is my platform for helping you break into the travel media space where we share insights, tips, advice, and stories from people working in the industry. Our mission inside this podcast has always been about uplifting women and inspiring more women to go after their own storytelling dreams.

 And in the two years that we've been podcasting, which is kind of hard to believe that it's been two years already, we've had so many incredible women in travel come and share not only their wisdom, but also their fears, wins, struggles, hopes and dreams with us.  And so, I wanted to bring back these conversations, some of the most poignant, heartfelt, and inspiring conversations we've ever had in our show.

 In the next few episodes, you're going to hear from travel photographer and writer and dear friend Karthika Gupta, who works with publications like Conde Nast Traveler, Thrillist, and more.  Our former student and circle member, Vanessa Dewson who's also been published in multiple publications, most recently in Trip Savvy.  Nicki Vargas, an amazing writer and editor at Photo Fodor's Travel who has a book coming out called Call You When I Land. Lola Akinmade, a multi-talented powerhouse of a female creator who is just so, so inspiring to me and whose projects continue pushing the boundaries of travel media space.  And last, but very much not so least,  Sarah Khan  an accomplished travel writer and editor and a thoughtful traveler who's currently working with Rob Report.

So, take a minute to listen to all of these episodes and also connect with these amazing women on Instagram. We will have, links in the show notes to all of their accounts so you can go and check out their work.  I handpicked every one of these conversations because they impacted me personally when I interviewed these incredible women.

 Because I want to celebrate them, their accomplishments, and also because I believe that listening to their stories can inspire you, their listeners, to go out there and go for the stories, projects, and dreams that you want to pursue as well.  And just a quick note that in some of these episodes you hear us refer to our podcast and platform as Genius Women.

 That used to be our name, but we changed to Travel Media Lab some time ago to better reflect the mission of our company.  I hope you enjoy these episodes.   

[INTERVIEW]

[00:03:15] YD: Today on the podcast, we have an amazing and talented Sarah Khan, who is an Editor-In-Chief of Conde Nast Traveler Middle East. I'm so excited that we found the time to meet today, Sarah. Welcome to the podcast.

[00:03:19] SK: Thank you. I'm so excited to be here with you today. I'm glad we were able to make this work.

[00:03:23] YD: Me too. Me too. You just were telling me just before we started recording, how whirlwind of an experience it's been so far for you to move from the States back – or not back, but back to the region sort of, and start your new life in Dubai. I'm sure it's been crazy. I really appreciate your time today.

[00:03:41] SK: Yeah. No. Definitely, with both of our schedules as travelers, it's always crazy to try to find the time, but I'm really glad we're able to make this work.

[00:03:48] YD: Me too. Me too. I loved your story on Malta, called ‘Discovering Malta’s Lingering Links to the Arab World’. For our listeners, we're going to link to the story in the show notes. For me, the whole essence of the story was summarized in one line you wrote, which said: “If only stones could talk, they would say marhaba.” I love that line so much. It was amazing. What do you love about the story?

[00:04:15] SK: You know exactly how it goes. When you're out there in the field reporting and somebody says something and you're like, “That's it. That's my lead, or that's what I'm posing with.” You have those moments. They're few and far between, but that was definitely one of them. When I heard him say that, I was like, “Oh, that's my story right there.”

[00:04:30] YD: I know, I know. I know exactly what you're talking about. You just have this tingling sense, right? When you hear that line, you're like, “Oh, yeah. That's it.” What did you love about the story?

[00:04:39] SK: Well, I think it was one of those unique experiences where you go into something or a destination not knowing much about it, but having this idea of what you're going to find, where it actually lives up to that and more. The reason I was interested in that story was I'd heard that Malta had been an Arab colony in the past and had some lingering influences from it, and that the influences were most prevalent in the language, which is a hybrid of Arabic and Italian. I think that was what was so interesting when I got there. I actually got to see that in action. I got to hear the language and hear how it was actually reminiscent so much of Arabic words that I was familiar with. Then also, just see the other more surreptitious ways that the culture has remained and actually really able to unpack that. I think it was just a very rewarding experience, where I went into it not knowing much, but having this idea of what I wanted to find, and it just really surpassed my greatest expectations.

[00:05:34] YD: Yeah. I think, you just really describe, if I may call it that way, a formula of sorts for really great stories, where you have some sort of a direction, but don't have everything laid out, or don't have many expectations. You have a direction and the curiosity that you're following and then seeing where that leads.

[00:05:52] SK: Yeah. I think, that's such a good way to look at is having a direction and the curiosity, because you can't go into anything with a pre-existing, clear idea of, “This is the story I'm going to tell and that's how it's going to go,” because, obviously, when you're on the ground, it's going to be so different. All you can do is go into it with a question. In this case, it was, “What lingering effects remain from Malta’s medieval Arab period?” Then, just letting the people you speak to and the local voices and perspectives guide your way to answering those questions. Yeah, exactly that.

[00:06:22] YD: Yeah. Related to that, how do you, in general, find your story ideas? Because I think for both you and I, for people who travel for work most of the time, we always want to make sure that we have a story, multiple stories out of every single trip that we take. Your story ideas, do they happen naturally to you? Or is there more a process that you follow before a trip where you're like, “Okay, I want to write – I want to have five stories about Malta,” or wherever that is?

[00:06:53] SK: I think, it varies. I obviously just started this role recently. Now my mandate is very different. When I was a freelancer, I had a bit more flexibility, because I had – the world was my oyster, as far as which types of publications I could place certain ideas at. I just, in that role, was able to just let my curiosity guide me. What am I interested in? What do I want to know about?

For instance, I was always curious, and a lot of it relates to the news and what's happening in the world. There was a point where we were hearing a lot of stories about Islamophobia and things like that in Europe. That just made me really curious about Bosnia, because Bosnia is a Muslim country, where their indigenous Muslims have been there for hundreds of years, but it's part of Europe, in the heart of Europe. I was just like, well, we keep hearing about Muslims are not from here, but what's it like in a country where Muslims are from there and have historically been from there?

I think, that was what I did a lot of just as a freelancer. I was like, what am I interested in? What am I curious about? What do I want to know about? Then, after that, the next step would be, and who would be interested in the story? In that case, the New York Times was interested in that story. Now, obviously, my mandate is a little different, because I am the Editor-In-Chief of Conde Nast Traveler Middle East, which obviously services this part of the world, the Middle East, the GCC, and broader environments around here, and then the diaspora as well.

Obviously, there's a mix of newsy things that are relevant, things happening in the region. I also, where possible, try to look at the world through a lens that might be of interest to this part of the world, where it should probably be interesting. I would think, anyone who's interested in Europe would be fascinated by some of the unexpected cultural exchanges that happened in Malta. It's an Arab legacy in Europe that you don't really think about that much, where it's the only Semitic language in the European Union. If you speak Arabic, and you speak a Romance language, you actually will understand a lot of Maltese. I think, that's where now, I try to think of more my readership first, and what would be a service to them, and then go from there. It's an interesting shift in how I approach my storytelling now.

[00:08:57] YD: Yeah, for sure. I actually related to that. I was curious. We mentioned, you recently became an editor-in-chief. Again, congratulations, by the way. It's an incredible achievement. Before that, you were a freelancer for I believe, eight years or so. How do you think your time as a freelancer in travel media has prepared you for this next stage in your career?

[00:09:21] SK: Well, I think it's just helped me really get a lot of different insight into how different publications work and what works and what doesn't, and what I like about editors, and what I don't like about editors, and try to be the best editor I can be. Unfortunate, it's still a work in progress, because I'm still very overwhelmed by a lot of it. I can't say I'm as responsive to emails as I'm hoping to become, based on my own experience on the other side of the computer.

[00:09:42] YD: Oh, my God. I love that. Because that's such a big gripe for us, right?

[00:09:46] SK: I know. Trust me, I was leading the charge of going about it and I hate that I have not been as on top of my inbox as I want to, but I'm trying. I think, the other thing that's been an interesting shift for me that I'm – diversity and travel writing has been a very important passion of mine, but I am one human who has one particular lens on the world. What's exciting for me now is, as an editor, I can actually champion that vision and really try my best to bring in a broader range of writers. While before, I just was able to – and it was great. I loved every minute of being a freelancer. Well, except for the parts where editors weren't replying to my emails.

There’s a lot I loved about freelancing, but it was also one of the things that was cool about it is I just got to write the stories I wanted to write at the end of the day. Obviously, it's not as simple and romanticizes it a bit, but you get to focus on things you want to do. Whereas here, I get to find ideas that excite me, that I'm curious about, and then try to think of who the right writer might be for that, or just finding voices that I like and just sending cold emails like, “Hey, I like that story you did,” and inviting them to pitch.”

I think, that's something, as a writer, I saw this void and this need of a broader range of voices. There's only so much I could do and so many people I could recommend. I wasn't empowered to actually make changes. I feel like that's something I'm hoping to do a lot more while I'm on this side of it, because of a need I saw as a freelancer.

[00:11:02] YD: Oh, I love that so much, Sarah, because it's been my experience too that – I'm curious to hear your take on it, that the travel media industry in general is such an insular space that, if you're not already part of that, or somehow connected, or plugged in, if you don't know the right people, if you're not in that space, then it's so hard for many of us to break into it. I know, you and your co-founders have started Travel is Better in Color, which is an amazing platform that features all the different voices in the industry. I'm curious, what would you say to someone who is looking from the outside looking into that, and they have aspirations, but then also, they're like, “I don't know anybody in this industry? What do I do?”

[00:11:46] SK: Yeah. Well, I think first, obviously, it's been very problematic for a long time. I also try to have a bit of empathy for the editors, where yes, it's been a big blind spot. That should not be okay, and I'm glad that people are waking up to it. Also, it's easy for anyone to fall into a comfort zone, right? We've worked with one or two writers, you know they're good and reliable, as opposed to going out of your way to seek out new voices, and you don't know what you're going to get necessarily. We're all doing multiple jobs now in publishing.

I can see why it's easy to fall into that familiar zone of writers and that limited pool and network that you've grown over time. Yes, at the same time, it's incredibly intimidating if you're an outsider. I think, now is probably a better time than most for writers looking to break in, who might consider themselves outsiders or not have the right network or the right context, because I think editors have been waking up to their blind spots and realizing that they really do need to do better.

That's part of where something like Travel is Better in Color comes in, where we have been – I mean, we all have full-time other jobs, so there's only so much we can do. It was our way of showing other editors, and a lot of top editors do follow that platform. Showing them, there are really talented, diverse writers, photographers, publicists, and people broadly in the travel industry, who've been doing their thing and are very accomplished and very well-known and doing it in English language mediums around – or English language publications around the world for a long time.

Just making it a little bit more accessible, where here are a bunch. Just go to our Instagram, you'll see a little bios. We get to know who's where, what they're doing, who they've written for. Obviously, that's for people who are somewhat more established, because they've been published in places. We're just highlighting some of their work. I think editors are very receptive to discovering new writers. It's a good way of making it easier for them in a bit and making their job easy. For people who are newer and on the earlier end of the spectrum, I think editors are also just more open to hearing ideas from different people that are new than they might have been 5, 10 years ago.

Especially with COVID, and all the travel restrictions that are constantly changing, this is a really good time for writers who are based in different countries and regions that aren't New York or London around the world, that are able to potentially – places that say, previously, in the glory days of travel writing, an editor might have just helicoptered in their favorite writer to go to Johannesburg and do something. Now, with all the unfortunate changing restrictions, they're more likely to commission somebody already based in Johannesburg, which is probably, in many cases, the best person to tell that story.

I think, if you are somebody who's either starting out or doesn't have contacts in some of the top publications, but you're based in an unusual destination for them, not to say there's anything unusual or exotic about the destination, because travelers, we hate the word exotic and what that implies. More just like, if it's a place that's not easily accessible to or commonly on the radar of a travel editor and sitting in New York. This is probably your best chance to actually get their attention.

[00:14:38] YD: I love that. I really love that, Sarah. Just to point this out to our listeners, first of all, Khadija Farah, who we had on the podcast several times now, she’s a Kenya-based photojournalist.

[00:14:49] SK: Yeah, yeah. I’ve seen her work. I love her.

[00:14:51] YD: You've seen her. Yeah. She talked about that, too, that in the pandemic, she's gotten so much more work than she ever did before, exactly for that reason that you just mentioned. I want to point out to our listeners, what Sarah just said is that editors are open to new ideas, new voices. A lot of times, I see that women who are starting out in this industry have so many doubts about whether they have something legitimate to say when they're first pitching somebody. I just wanted to reinforce this idea that editors are actually open to new ideas and new voices. If you're watching this as a video later on YouTube, Sarah is an incredibly approachable and accessible and amazing human. She's not scary. She doesn't bite. So, it’s like that. They're humans just like us.

[00:15:43] SK: All we really want is a good story. If you have a good story, tell it. I mean, obviously, that simplifies it a lot. There's a lot more that goes into it. I think, the other important thing is, if you are new, or you're just getting the courage to pitch somebody, cold pitch somebody you haven't worked with before and you don't hear back, or you don't get an immediate yes, is you cannot take it personally. It’s not a testament to you, or your talent, or your lack thereof or anything. It is literally, it could be as simple as you just – Zanzibar story, and they just did a 10-page feature on Zanzibar, so they're not going to revisit it. Then maybe, they just didn't get a chance to reply to your email, because again, email inboxes are always a nightmare.

I think, that's the other thing. You have to have a bit of a thick skin, especially if you're a freelancer, and you just can't sell yourself short and tell yourself that, “Oh, this person didn’t reply. My career is over. I must be terrible at it.” I say this as somebody who did that throughout my freelance career, even when I was getting the best balance of my life. There's a lot of self-doubt that goes into this. Even when I was interviewing for this role, I was just like, “What am I doing?” It’s like, wait, I’ve earned this, but for whatever reason, I think a lot of us get intimidated and talk ourselves out of things. When it comes to pitching new editors, you should always go out there. All it takes is one great pitch to catch someone's eye. If it doesn't, pitch it somewhere else. Somebody will be interested.

[00:17:00] YD: I love that. Sarah. I love that. That's exactly what I talk about all the time on this podcast, exactly that. Don't interpret all the rejections, or lack of responses as a personal judgment on you, your work, your worth, worth of your work, any of that. You have to grow a really thick skin in this career.

[00:17:18] SK: Yeah. I mean, I'll say that as somebody that I think was when I was freelancing, I think, I was considered fairly prolific and rather successful, as far as freelancing goes. I'm very proud of the career I have. I had so many people that wouldn't reply, or editors I've worked with many times and had good relationships with. Always, the instinct is to take it personally. I often took it personally. Literally, it happens to everyone, even the people you're seeing that are being published everywhere you want to be published, even people who are starting out.

It's just the way it is. It's not great, and that's why I said, my goal is to be a more responsive editor, even if I am turning someone down, which again, still a work in progress. Yeah, I think it's just you need to know that it's not you and you should always try somewhere else, until – Because you don't know what the secret formula is for some of these magazines and publications and what really they're looking for at any given time. 

[00:18:08] YD: Yes. Actually, on that point, I think, one of the hopeful signs that I see in the industry when it comes to opening up those insulated spaces is that I was shocked to see this year, how many publications for the first time ever put their pitching guidelines online. Where before, it was like, you had no idea what Afar was looking for, for example, unless you had a foot in the door already. Condé Nast US as well just recently put theirs up. It's like, well, that's great. Now you have the guidelines.

[00:18:38] SK: I used to feel like, getting an editor's email address was a state secret. You had to learn all these complicated ways to Google things and find it. Now they're literally, like here are the pitches, here's the right editor for that section. I mean, it's amazing. It's a whole new world right now, I think, and for people who are trying to get their foot in the door. That wasn't even possible a few years ago.

[00:18:59] YD: Definitely, definitely. Actually, I think, I've read somewhere that you knew that you wanted to be a journalist since you were eight years old. I think, you're one of the first guests that we had on the podcast that had so much clarity so early on. Talk to us a little bit about that. Specifically, it's the idea that the eight-year-old Sarah had about what journalism is and what this career could be. Did it unfold in the way that she imagined or not?

[00:19:28] SK: I think, it unfolded better, to be honest. Eight-year-old Sarah had no idea what possibilities it held. I think, I mean, obviously, in some ways worse, because the media industry has definitely changed a lot since I was eight-years-old. Yeah. I grew up in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia. When I was growing up, my mother was a journalist. She was a freelance writer. Did a lot of lifestyle and travel writing, actually, for Arab News, Saudi Gazette, the In-Flight Magazine for Saudi Airlines. My dad worked at Saudi Airlines.

I had this combination of travel and writing in my life from a very young age. That's why I knew what journalism was, because of my mom. I think, I had just seen her example and that's all I knew. I knew I loved telling stories. I think, as I grew older, and I went to journalism school, initially, my vision was actually – when I was looking at it more seriously was something more hard-news related. I think, just that seemed more serious, if you will. I just thought, I'd try to do something like that.

Then, when I took a features editing class in J School, that's when I realized I really liked being on features and lifestyle. Even then, it was a more natural progression. If you think about it, the fact that I grew up in this region, my dad worked for an airline in this region, my mom was a journalist in this region, doing travel and lifestyle writing. Then, I grew up traveling and to be back in the Middle East as editor-in-chief of Condé Nast Traveler Middle East, that really feels like perfect synergy.

For me, I still started – I worked in New York at lifestyle magazines and I went into a travel magazine. At Travel and Leisure, on staff for a few years, and then I moved to South Africa, I went freelance. It was this very organic progression towards where I am today, and really building my personal brand, if you will, in different regions and different types of coverage. It's just interesting how my life has led me back to this point. It does feel like a very much full-circle moment. Just a really exciting time to be back here. I think, yeah. I don't think eight-year-old Sarah really knew what she was getting into when she decided she want to be a journalist, but I think, she would be very excited if she were able to look at what I'm doing now.

I actually was just in Jeddah yesterday to cover some of the new developments happening there. I think, that was particularly exciting to be back in the city where it all started for me and just be able to chronicle that, report on that, I think is really – it just felt very goosebumpy for me.

[00:21:38] YD: Definitely. I can imagine. You just mentioned that you went freelance after working some time in the magazines. You did that while you also moved to another country. That must have been a doubly, what – maybe scary is not the right word, but you're changing countries and you're going freelance. How was that experience like?

[00:21:59] SK: That, honestly, whenever anybody asked me for advice for freelance travel writing, I actually say, if you have the ability, the privilege, the chance, the opportunity to move overseas, somewhere less covered by US and UK publications, do it. Because that was actually a huge turning point for me professionally. I obviously had been working as a journalist for a few years. I've worked in travel magazines. I built a bit of a portfolio and all that, but I was still fairly junior to mid-level at that point. Moving to South Africa and going freelance, I gave myself a year to see how it would go. Then, if I needed to, I'd look for something more full-time.

Within a year, I was writing for all my dream publications. That was because, I mean, and I know in some ways, I had a leg up, because I've worked in New York media before. Honestly, most of my pitches that landed in that first year, were through cold pitching, where I just reach out to a new editor who never heard of me and be like, “Hi, I'm based in Cape Town. I have XYZ ideas.” Like what I was saying earlier, where if you're somewhere unique and not that often covered by these editors, you have a leg up already. I, living in Cape Town, had the ability to really tap into nuanced story ideas that were happening on the ground there. I started by focusing on Cape Town and Southern Africa. Then, when I had the relationship with the editors, I'd be like, “All right. Well, I want to go to Estonia.” I just pitched all over the world.

I think, it was a great foot in the door for me, establishing myself with my regional expertise, and then building those relationships and taking them beyond. Even when I moved back from South Africa, I wasn't just the South Africa girl. I actually had a blog back then called The South AfriKhan. Get it?

[00:23:31] YD: Yes. Yes.

[00:23:33] SK: Yeah. I was worried when I moved back to New York, like, what if I'm just a South AfriKhan, can I actually transition this? I think, that's when I built those relationships with those initial pitches, and then I just transitioned to other coverage. Long story short, if you have the opportunity to live somewhere unique – again, I say that just in reference to what editors might be looking for, or have access to, because it's obviously much more expensive for them to send a writer to Cape Town than it is to have somebody who's got on the ground intel. My intel, as someone based in Cape Town was obviously much better than someone sitting in New York googling frantically before their trip, right?

For me, that was honestly – I feel like, that experience really helped me leapfrog ahead a lot as a freelancer, so that I really – if I was in New York and fighting for the same stories as all the other freelance writers in New York, I don't think I would have had anywhere near as much success as I did in that stage of my career.

[00:24:23] YD: Yeah. No, that makes a lot of sense. That's great advice. I haven't heard it presented in that lens before. Or, if you don't have an ability to move somewhere, let's say, again, “exciting,” looking at how you can deliver expertise in your local area too, and perhaps find an interesting niche, or a crossover between different verticals. Maybe it's travel and design. Maybe it's travel and the art, or whatever you have. Basically, what I'm trying to say is you don't always have to travel places to be able to do travel writing. On that note, we both know that this career is a super aspirational one. I wonder, what would you say is some of the most misunderstood parts of being in this industry as a freelancer, or as an editor?

[00:25:13] SK: I think this is an idea that we're just always on holiday. I'm not saying that to complain, but I get why it seems like that, especially on Instagram. It is a privilege. It's amazing that I get to do all these wonderful, unique things for work. I think, people don't –because they're just seeing the nice pictures and stuff online, they're not seeing all the work that goes into it.

When I was in Malta writing a story, I also was on my phone non-stop, dealing with emails from work, because I mean, I still have a job. It's not like I was just relaxing. Even when I was freelance, I would block out my time to take those trips, but there's still always random admin and you’re invoicing for this story, you're dealing with edits on that story. You're always doing other things. You're not just on vacation. You're actually working.

Then, all the prep that goes into planning a trip, I don't think people realize, I have pages and pages of notes and I have all these interviews lined up before. I try to plan for spontaneity, where I can leave some windows to discover things. There's also, a lot of it is pre-planned and pre – not even pre-planned in a bad way. I'm like, okay, if I want to do this story on the Arab legacy in Malta, I need to talk to experts. I can't just go and just try to hope that I stumble onto someone who happens to know everything. I reached out to professors in Malta beforehand. I scheduled an interview with a fashion designer that was doing some research into a garment that was potentially a legacy from the area.

You plan a bunch of things in advance, then you're constantly on the go doing those things that you plan, but then you also – For me, I feel like, you really want to justice to a destination, especially when it's a place that you are not from. You don't want to try to presume that you're telling the whole story in one article. I'm always nervous about like, what if I miss something big? You will. I mean, you can't expect to tell an entire – This isn't the Lonely Planet, you're not writing an entire guidebook to a place. You're only doing one lens. I'm always like, what if I miss some major moments? I'm constantly stressed about making sure I talk to as many people as possible and get as much context and nuance as possible while I'm on the ground.

Then, there's often a lot more research that goes on after. Like, say, I'm on the ground, I'm interviewing someone, and they mention an author, or a book, and I don't have time to connect with the author there. I'll go back and do some Zoom interviews after. I'll go buy that book and read the book after. Then, you still have to write the story. It's not like, you just put a few Instagram posts and then call it a day, right? You have to actually write it and go through the edit. It's much longer than just what it looks like, I guess, on social media. 

Again, not to complain, there's much worse ways to make money. It's a privilege and an honor to have a role like this. I think, it's just people assume that like, “Oh, I wish I could be on vacation all the time,” as a comment. Yeah, I do too, actually. That sounds really nice.

[00:27:40] YD: Yeah. I 100 percent agree with you. That's also one of the biggest misconceptions that I often hear from people that, “You have the most fabulous job. You're always on vacation.” Well, there's quite a lot that goes into it, for sure. I think, what unites, I think, a lot of people I meet in this industry is that we all have this passion for these ideas, for the stories for the act of traveling itself, for the act of discovering. I think, that helps us also, because it's not the easiest job in the world, too, by the way, right? When you travel all the time, and you have all these things going on and all this process that you just laid out, it can be exhausting, actually. I think, it's our passion is what keeps us going.

[00:28:19] SK: Yeah. You don't get to sleep much when you're doing this work.

[00:28:22] YD: Definitely. Wait, actually, can we talk a little bit about Estonia?

[00:28:26] SK: Oh, yeah. You live there, right?

[00:28:28] YD: I grew up there.

[00:28:29] SK: Yeah, that’s what I thought. I did remember that. Yeah.

[00:28:32] YD: That's amazing. I think, you did a road trip there through the Baltic countries.

[00:28:36] SK: Yeah. I went, and the main reason I went is I really wanted to go Muhu Island, Padaste Manor. I read about that years ago somewhere. It's just one of those, I think, when you work in travel, there's certain places that just get under your skin and you just want to go to. That was one of the main reasons I wanted to go. Then, I loved Telen and I went to – I can't remember. Is it Panu on the coast, I think? Something like that.

Yeah, it was such a cool country. Then the whole Baltic region was just a revelation. I really enjoyed that whole road trip through – started in Estonia, went through Latvia, and then in Lithuania. I had some of the best food of my travels there. Yeah, it was a really cool trip. I think, not that you asked this, but as far as other types of advice I have for travelers is it's great when you can get sent somewhere an assignment. That's obviously the best. Sometimes, it's also good to just take your own trips, and then try to sell as many stories as you can. That is an example of one time I did that where I pitched the Estonia story. That's what I was going for, but then I also, on my own dime, did the rest of the road trip. I also pitched so many stories along the way, a couple different Latvia angles, Lithuania angle.

Even though whatever costs I might have incurred with the road trip, and that wasn't on the expense budget for the primary story, I still made way more than that in the long run. Sometimes, it's a worthwhile investment to strategically think about places you can go, that you don't mind putting your own expenses toward, that might pay off tenfold down the line.

[00:30:07] YD: Definitely. Also, recognizing that, sometimes – For example, there's some destinations that I'm still pitching years after you go. Obviously, those are more evergreen stories and not something that's news driven. Sometimes, some of the trips and places that you do, they keep giving back for a long time.

[00:30:27] SK: That's how I made my way through the pandemic. It was a lot of the stories that were from my previous trips that I never had the bandwidth to pitch or write about after I filed the primary story from that trip. I spent a lot of time in my notebook archives and just looking for other angles, and then pitching other things. That's a lot of what I did during 2020.

[00:30:46] YD: Yeah, that makes sense. I wanted to ask you a little bit more about Travel is Better in Color and your platform and particularly, now that we're a year and a half from the, let's say, the Great Awakening of 2020, how do you feel about how the industry is looking now? Because a lot of people, a lot of publications did a lot of things back then. Well, I mean, a lot of performative things at least. I think, the question now is, did any of it stick? Or how are you feeling about how the industry is looking like now?

[00:31:20] SK: Look, it's a challenging thing to wake up overnight and realize how problematic you've been and to try to fix it. Obviously, it's going to take time. I think, performative is the right word. A lot of it was performative. I do think that I've seen writers become much more prolific in this time, because editors have been making more of an effort to really reach out. I feel, I've seen the journeys of some writers really progress over the last year and a half. That's been exciting to watch. I think, in some ways, it feels like, perhaps the editors are, again, falling into that little bubble of okay, they discovered a few new writers, and now they're just going to keep working with them over and over.

I think, it still needs to be an ongoing process that I don't know that everyone is really doing to the best of their ability. Hey, leaps and bounds ahead of where things were two years ago, so it's a start. I think, the only time – and I think we actually talked about this once on that clubhouse we did together. The real change is when the masthead changes. Because, yes, it's great to bring in diverse writers, and you have to and it's important, but they're not necessarily the ones shaping the vision and the direction of the magazine. It's the people that are in the editorial meetings that get to say yay or nay to different ideas, and who are the people writing those stories?

I think, I haven't seen that really change much. That, again, is something that's going to take a while, because obviously, publications, it's not you can just be like, “All right, we're going to hire seven new people this month.” I think that, only when we see that change dramatically is when we're really going to see meaningful, lasting change. Because you need to – it can't just be tokenism. It can't just be like, yeah, one POC on the masthead who is going to be the one that explains every single thing and tells you why every choice is right or wrong. You need to have people from a whole host of different backgrounds that are really reflective of the readers today and the people that are traveling today.

That is what I would really like to see more of. I've seen definitely some good positive steps in the right direction, as far as who's being commissioned, the kinds of stories that are being done. I just want to see that momentum continue and I wanted to see it translate into actual long-term staff changes, too, as far as really diversifying there.

[00:33:17] YD: Yeah. Your current assignment is one such step in that direction as well, which is super exciting.

[00:33:24] SK: Yeah. I mean, I know I have my own limitations from being out here and covering this part of the world and other things. Yeah, whatever I can do to help bring different voices into my magazine, whatever limited page count I have, I'm happy to do it, and I hope to see things changing everywhere.

[00:33:38] YD: Speaking of that, what kinds of stories does Sarah Khan, Editor-In-Chief of Conde Nast Traveler Middle East looks for?

[00:33:46] SK: Oh, that is a great question. I'm still every day trying to figure that out, because there's so much to tell. It's such a dynamic part of the world. We only have a bi-monthly magazine to tell it. I feel like, it felt a little bit limiting in that sense, where I feel like, “Oh, my God. I want to commission everyone, everything.” I think, the things that stand out to me are just really strong local coverage of this region. We know Dubai really well, because we're based in Dubai in the UAE, but I want to hear more from Oman. I want to hear more from Jordan. I want to hear more from Egypt, Tunisia.

Just really thoughtful, nuanced stories of the kinds of stories I like to write as a freelancer, I want to empower other people to write for me from this entire region. Just focusing on the arts and the design, and just entrepreneurship. There's so much happening. It's such a dynamic, really exciting time to be in this part of the world. I really want to showcase that as best as I can. Then, I'm also trying to shape our international coverage, where I really take into account what stories might be of interest to readers who are of Middle Eastern or diaspora backgrounds, or what would be of service to them.

That's part of why I did the Malta story, because I think, that's broadly an interesting angle, and I hope other people like it, too. I think, like I was saying earlier, that's something that is a legacy of this part of the world over there. I want to do a bit more of that. Not that every story needs to have that angle, but I'd love to look through the world through that, filtering the rest of the world through that lens as well, where those stories are relevant, because there are some really interesting legacies around the world that I think would be really fun to spotlight. Then also, just travel stories and trends. Send me everything, guys.

[00:35:27] YD: Sarah is open to pitches, you guys. There you go. There are two things that stood out for me when you were talking just now. One is, it's actually a great idea when you're approaching a new editor that you want to pitch with something. Look at their work, if it's available online. Look at the kinds of stories they've created in the past. That's a great indication of what stories they like to see as well. The other thing was that I feel that excitement that you're talking about in the region as well. The past several years that I've been coming to Jordan, that's what I keep seeing. There's so much creative energy here, but particularly in Amman.

It's so exciting that, and I feel like, a lot of audiences outside of the region have no idea, or they have a very different idea of what some of these cities in the Middle East look like. That's partially why we're here. We're partially here to change some of those narratives as well. That's really exciting.

[00:36:22] SK: I think, that is honestly one of the main things that drew me to this opportunity is just this part of the world has been so misunderstood and underserved for so long that, yes, I want to tell stories that first and foremost, are in service to this readership. I also want to show these different nuanced sides of this part of the world. This is a massive part of the world. It's everywhere from the GCC to north – to the Levant, to North Africa. To be able to tell these stories in a global way that other people will also see some of the change and the interesting things coming out of here.

[00:36:53] YD: Definitely. Oh, Sarah, I wish we could keep talking with you, because it's just been so fun. There is a lot of things that we haven't touched on in this conversation. I think, maybe we will see, if you have some more time later on in the year, maybe we'll do a follow-up conversation with you as well, if you're open to it. I want to close this particular conversation with a question that I always close with. It's a big one. How would you begin to answer, what does it mean to be a woman who is stepping into her brilliance today?

[00:37:27] SK: That is really good, and really big question. I think, it's just about taking up space in the world, and showing who you are, and all your different multitudes. Really, just not being afraid to make sure you're heard and make sure your perspective is out there and make sure everything that you offer to the world is visible and known. It's hard to do. It's it sounds really easy, right? Just be yourself and be out there. I think, we're often conditioned to not really think we can take up space in this way. I think, that's what's really exciting. Again, to bring it back to this region, seeing some of those changes here and how women are really embracing their brilliance in different ways.

I think, it's just about being out there, being loud and proud and sharing your point of view, because your point of view is very unique and interesting and fascinating. You should not talk yourself out of sharing that with the world.

[00:38:15] YD: Oh, I love that. I love that, Sarah. I love that. Did you listen to all of our podcast episodes or something? Because that's exactly what I talk about on nearly every episode is that realizing really deeply how unique your perspective is, because of your experiences, because of your background, because all of the things that you bring to the table. There's no one else out there with that unique perspective. That to me is a door through which you step into the brilliance that you already have, is realizing that unique voice that you have. I love that. That's a beautiful way.

[00:38:49] SK: Look, I think it's also just, we all have the voice, but I think we all don't feel empowered to share it, because we talk ourselves out of thinking that what we have to say is unique or important. I think, that's really what it is, is just when you get to a point where you realize, I should be out there more doing whatever it is that you do. No matter how it manifests, as long as you're out there.

[00:39:10] YD: Definitely. You don't know who is going to see that what you do, and be inspired by that. I mean, talk about representation, talk about all the role models of all these amazing women that we see on our paths and how we get impacted and inspired by them. It's so important, not just for you yourself, but also for all the other women out there who see that as well. I couldn't agree more.

That's amazing. Well, thank you so much, Sarah. I know we have a hard stop, so we're going to wrap up now. I would really love to invite you to the podcast again, and maybe expand on some of the themes that we've had here. Thank you so much for your time.

[00:39:50] SK: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. It was such a pleasure. This is such a great conversation. Thank you, Yulia.

[END OF INTERVIEW]

[00:40:16] YD: Thank you so much for listening. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. We are bringing back to celebrate the multi-talented women who've come to our show over the years, and if so, I want to ask you to please now take a minute to support our show.  You can do that by leaving us a rating or a review on an Apple podcast app or any other app that you are listening this podcast on or by sharing this episode.

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