S9 E99: Stories That Matter With Editor Esme Benjamin

Get the show’s transcript

[00:00:00] EB: the first thing to remember is that you bring so much value to the editor.

 When you reach out with a, an idea with a pitch, they need those pitches or they don't have any content. So if you're not there pitching, then they're not going to be meeting their targets.

They're not going to be publishing enough content on their site or in their print magazine. So it's important to remember that what you're doing is really valuable. 

[00:00:22] YD: Welcome back to our show, everyone. I am your host, Yulia Denisyuk, a travel photographer, writer, storyteller, community builder, podcaster, and entrepreneur working with publications like National Geographic Traveler, Conde Nast Traveler, and more. Traveling to interesting places around the world like Botswana and the Arctic Circle and producing stories that I'm.

Really excited about today on the show. We're chatting with Esme Benjamin, an award winning writer, editor, and broadcaster based in New York city. Her work, which explores travel and wellbeing can be found in Elle magazine, Conde Nast Traveler, Self. Culture Trip, Trip Advisor, and many more. Esme is the current editor in chief of Full Time Travel, and she also hosts The Trip That Changed Me, a podcast featuring transformative travel stories from the likes of writer Mary Andrew, top chef judge Gail Simmons, And a guest of our show in the past, author and editor at Fodor's Travel, Nikki Vargas.

On this episode, we are going to cover a range of topics from the press trip policy of the New York Times and how Esme got one of her stories. Options to become a TV show, to finding work as a copywriter. We talk about putting more eggs in more baskets and pursuing work that matters to you and why it is crucial to have a circle of friends in this industry who can share ideas and opportunities with you and lift each other up.

 I've enjoyed the conversation with Esme so much and. I hope you do too. And be sure to check out Esme's podcast, The Trip That Changed Me. You can find it on every podcast streamer, and we're also going to link it to, um, in the show notes. And by the way, I am a guest on Esme's podcast too, which I'm really excited about.

So definitely check out our show notes for the link to that episode where Esme interviews me about the trip that changed my life. This episode and the entire season of our show is brought to you by Visit Jordan. Be sure to visit myjordanjourney. com to learn more about this beautiful place. That's myjordanjourney.

com. All right, now let's get started with our conversation with Esme. 

Welcome to the podcast, Esme. I am so excited to have you on today and to talk to our listeners about the topic that I think everybody is very interested in learning more about, which is how do we, diversify our revenue streams? How do we put more eggs into more baskets and have multiple things? Uh, working for us and,juggling all those things successfully.

super, super excited to talk to you today. Welcome Esme to Travel Media Lab.

[00:03:24] EB: Thank you, Yulia. I'm so excited to be here, and I just love everything that you're doing in the space, so I'm honored to be your guest.

[00:03:31] YD: Thank you. That means a lot. Thank you so much. that's really awesome. so let's start with, your,story for Elle Magazine. How much would you spend to save a relationship? which we're going to link to initial notes, so listeners definitely check out that story. it's such a powerful piece of work and I absolutely love the section where you were talking about.

meeting your spouse's wounded inner child and how cathartic and how powerful that can be. That resonated with me for so many different, reasons. definitely put me back into my last relationship where we tried to do that, not so successfully, unfortunately. So tell me, what do you love about that story?

[00:04:15] EB: Well, when it first came to me, it was actually in a press release. I'm signed up with Scission, the database for journalists and PRs to connect, and most of the time I ignore these press releases because they bombard me all day long. but this particular one jumped out at me and, it was about a rabbi who runs these relationship therapy retreats.

They're held in exotic locations like Costa Rica or the Dominican Republic. and they basically are for couples who desperately need to reconnect and they need help that goes beyond. A typical relationship therapy session with a psychologist over zoom, which is kind of the model that everyone's been working with since the pandemic.

There's very little in person therapy happening. so it gives couples the chance to really get the help that they need, in a very intensive format. So it's a week long and it's eight hours a day. It is full on. Yes. But the idea is that you, it's also quite expensive, right? Hence the title is how much would you spend to save your relationship? but I think that they do offer couples hope where perhaps they wouldn't have hope previously. I think infidelity is a, an interesting topic. Most of these people have gone through some, some sort of infidelity. It just so happened that my sources that I spoke to all had that connecting thread. But it's something that touches so many people's lives, unfortunately, you know, even my own parents are divorced in the last few years because of infidelity.

and so whether you're a cheater or you've been cheated on, you know, there's cheating in your family or in your friendship group, it's something that so many of us deal with, but that none of us want to talk about. And only 15% of couples. actually managed to come back from infidelity. But I think that with, psychologists like Esther Perel, who I love, people are starting to re imagine what it might look like.

Like, could we actually find a way back to where we are? And even if it's not the us that existed before, the unblemished version of us, perhaps there's a new version of us that we can bring into being. It doesn't have to be the end. We could still be incredibly strong and in love, even after undergoing something so difficult.

[00:06:20] YD: Yeah. Oh my goodness. So, so many things that you said really resonate with me. I'm also a fan of Esther Perel and her work

[00:06:27] EB: Love her.

[00:06:28] YD: that stats that you mentioned. I remember reading it in the article that only 15% of couples that go through infidelity managed to survive it. Yeah. I just loved how, this article really, really looked with fresh eyes on this age Age old challenge that couples go through and yeah, we, we just really, really put some of these concepts on, on their head. I, I felt like, and I really loved it and also that it was kind of travel related, well, tangentially travel related because the, the couples did have to travel to all these various locations.

[00:07:02] EB: Right. It's not like a traditional travel story by any means. It's not a city guide or anything along those lines, but I think that's what makes it interesting. Sometimes a story comes to you, And you're like, oh, you know what? This is kind of my beat. My beat has changed a lot over the years, which we can talk about later.

But I was like, this kind of meets me in the middle of wellbeing and travel, which the two things I like to explore in my work. so yeah, it just really resonated with me and I'm glad that it's found such a great audience as well. People seem to be loving it.

[00:07:31] YD: Definitely. And in fact, I also believe that some of the best work that we do is when it comes at the intersection of some of these topics, right? Whether it's travel and design or travel and food or travel and well being, I think it's always interesting to look at your main topic through those lens, because then you can uncover Some of these interesting threads.

And also you mentioned that the story, the inspiration for it came from a press release. I always say that, you know, be open to ideas coming from all kinds of directions. Like I just recently did a story. that I got an idea from listening to a podcast, actually. which was really cool. 

[00:08:08] EB: I think you have to be like stories come to you from all over and I keep like, you know, notes on my phone. When a story pops out to me, I just start making a few, I just jot down a few things. and then from there, I start to build on it and see if it actually has got legs and could turn into something.

In the case of this one, you know, the story already kind of came to me in a pretty formed way, but then I went about being like, hey, are there more of these retreats around? So I looked into some other ones, and then from there started doing a lot more in depth reporting. but yeah, ideas really can come from anywhere, and, they might not even be the sort of thing that you're normally drawn to, but I think that's part of the joy of this series.

Job is that you can become like a mini expert in so many different things that you didn't expect to become an expert in. that's what I love about journalism.

[00:08:52] YD: That's true. That's really true. That's so well put. So you have a very illustrious, journey and biography. You've been in this space for a while. You're an award winning writer, editor, broadcaster. You've worked with different publications like Elle, like the story that we just discussed, Condé Nast Traveler as well, Refinery29, Self, and others.

you're also currently editor in chief of Full Time Travel and you have your own podcast. we'll talk about that, in a minute, but I wonder how did all of that sort of come, rather, how did you come into the space of travel, of journalism, of storytelling? Was that kind of a straightforward path for you, or not so much?

 Disclaimer, most people I talk to, they wanted the straightforward path into it, so I'm just curious, how did it unfold for you?

[00:09:37] EB: It was straightforward in the way that I always knew I was going to be a writer. and according to Benjamin Family law, I was like, Speaking from like nine months of age, when I was a kid, my kind of party trick was to memorize chapters of books or segments of dialogue from TV shows and just recite it by heart.

Like I was very verbally oriented. so I kind of always knew, and that was never a question for me, which feels like a privilege in some sense, because I know some people go into something and then they have to rearrange their whole lives, whereas I was always pretty focused on this one path. But when I graduated, I think I had a bit of a crisis because I suddenly realized that, so I'm from the UK.

And a lot of the publishing industry is based in London. I am not from London. I'm from a city called Bristol in Southwest England. And I had nobody who I knew, no contacts in the industry. I had no one in London that I knew that I could stay with while I interned for free. And so. I had a bit of a crisis of like, how am I going to get into this industry?

There's a lot of sort of weird gatekeeping that you don't even consider. And I don't know if it's the same for all countries. I can only speak for the UK, but that was how it felt to me at the time. I did get lucky that my now husband, then boyfriend went to university in London, so then I had a base, right?

So I could go over there and. Intern at like InStyle or The Telegraph and start to like make some connections. But really the most useful thing for me in terms of making those contacts and those connections in the industry has been education. I am not one to tell people to get a master's because it's so expensive and it's very time consuming but there are shorter courses that you can do that are amazing for meeting people because a lot of them are helmed by working journalists. So I did a short course, at London College of the Arts in fashion and magazine journalism, because at the time I wanted to be a fashion writer. and from there I got my first kind of in, in, in the industry working for the fashion editor at large of Grazia magazine, which is like a, it's kind of like a celebrity gossip meets fashion style publication weekly, in the UK.

I think. There's one in Italy, the U. S. doesn't have one yet, but it's very popular. So I worked with her and that was my first introduction. It was only because one of the, lecturers on my course knew her really well and was like, Hey, this girl Esme has a lot of promise. I really like her. You should connect.

and the same thing happened to me when I first moved to the States. I, Found it difficult to kind of get I've struggled with my visa because this is a whole other story, but as a foreign national Getting a visa to work in the States is not easy So when I finally did get my visa to work, I felt like I've been out of the game for a while So I decided to do a short course at a place called catapult They have a publication as well, but they also do they have like a little school.

So I, took a course with Rachel Syme, one of the staff writers of the New Yorker currently. And that was great as well, just for meeting other people in the industry. So that would be my number one tip for people. this has been a bit meandering. I'm sorry. But my first job, was in London, like, after Grazia, was at a publication called Sheer Lux, doing fashion and lifestyle kind of features writing.

and then when I moved over here, I got a job at Culture Trip because after kind of reconsidering and taking some time out during the era when I couldn't work in the states, I felt like I wanted to move away from fashion and into something else. And wellness and travel were the two things I was most passionate about.

And I happened to see that this new publication that was launching called Culture Trip was looking for a wellness editor, it was like all the things came together. So, I applied and I got that. And that was the first big job that I had in the states.

[00:13:07] YD: I love that. I, I love the tip that you gave because as I've also learned after being in the industry for six now coming on seven years, is that really, it's all about people, like many other industries. I thought somehow this industry will be different, but no, it's not. It's just like any others who, you know, it's making connections, it's developing connections, and really building relationships.

In the industry with editors, with other writers and, and growing your network. It's so important, 

[00:13:36] EB: important. And there are so many ways that you can do that as well. Like, you know, doing a course is one way, but there are groups like there's this one I'm part of called list serve. and people, it's just various journalists, mostly freelancers asking each other questions and giving each sharing resources.

But there will be local meetups where they'll be like, Hey, are there any Brooklyn list servers that wanna go hang out? Those people all work in the industry. They're your peers. They're the best way for you to also learn about opportunities to bounce ideas off each other. You know, even like looking over each other's pitches.

It's such a useful resource for all of those things. so yeah, the more people you can forge those kind of relationships with, the better.

[00:14:16] YD: definitely, definitely. I love that. I, I don't think I've heard of listserv. I'll have to ask you for the link,

[00:14:21] EB: No, sorry, it's study hall, it's study hall's Listserv.

[00:14:24] YD: Oh, Study hall, yeah.

I actually, I learned about it from, uh, during the pandemic, cause they had a list circulating on like publications that were shut down. That were shutting down during the pandemic and which ones weren't. So, okay. Study hall. Yeah, that's a, I'm not very familiar with that resource, but I definitely, I've heard of that.

They'll even like, they'll be great for, if you know that you want to write for say, National Geographic, but you don't know any of the editors emails, you can be like, hey, has anyone worked with an editor at Nat Geo? Like, I would like to get in touch with them, and they will like, throw you an email. And it's so easy.

amazing. Amazing. That's really cool. Yeah. We'll, find a link to it and link it in the show notes. 

 I'm curious. So I asked this question often for, writers and photographers that come on the podcast. I don't remember if I've ever asked an editor this question. So what are some of the biggest misconceptions you think people have about this job of being a travel editor?

[00:15:17] EB: Oh my, biggest misconceptions. I think people think that press trips are incredibly glamorous. Which sometimes they are, to be fair. And sometimes they're a real hustle. When you're going with multiple people, you know, it's a big group of, I've been on Sunweather, I've been like 15 journalists, and you're, you have an extremely tight schedule.

So, you might have to start the day at 7am, and it'll be like a coffee meeting, and you'll interview somebody, and then you're on to the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing, and your day ends at like 8 o'clock with dinner. And... You know, it's very much like not a vacation. Like my friends when I get back from a press trip will be like, how was your vacation?

And I'll be like, no, no, no, it's not a vacation. so yeah, just being aware of that is still amazing, but it is like it's hard. It can be very hard work, um, depending on the press trip. So I think that's one,

[00:16:05] YD: what about, maybe not, not a misconception so much, but on this topic of you as an editor working with writers, right? many people that I speak to in our community are always putting you guys editors on the pedestal and are so afraid of reaching out to editors are so afraid to make a mistake.

Are so afraid that the pitch will not be perfect, and if it's not perfect, I'm not even going to send it out. So, from the other side of it, from somebody who is receiving pitches or has received pitches in the past, what would you want to say to people who are listening and who might be the ones pitching you in the future, let's say?

[00:16:42] EB: Yeah, I've been on both sides of this. And I think, the first thing to remember is that you bring so much value to the editor.

[00:16:49] YD: Love it.

[00:16:50] EB: When you reach out with a, an idea with a pitch, they need those pitches or they don't have any content. So if you're not there pitching, then they're going to be, they're not going to be meeting their targets.

They're not going to be publishing enough content on their, on their site or in their print magazine. So it's important to remember that what you're doing is really valuable. I also think, you know, that it's a relationship, it's a collaboration. So you don't have to, obviously you have to have a good enough idea that you're piquing their interest in some way.

But then remember that they will have input. They'll say, what about this? Can you explore this? Can you expand on this point? And you can also ask them and say, hey, like, what do you think about taking it in this direction? Those relationships are really important. And I think, like that's how you get to be a stronger writer as well.

You know.

[00:17:32] YD: Oh my God. I love that so much Esme. And I love that you brought this up. Remember that we have value, that what we're doing has value for editors because we are the ones who are bringing them ideas

[00:17:44] EB: Totally, I always think, remember, one of the mistakes I made when I was a writer in the beginning was that I would send a pitch and I'd be like, okay, out it goes. And then I just wait for a reply. And if I didn't get a reply, I'd be like, oh, they hated it. I'm embarrassed. Why did I, how could I even deign to contact them with my idea, which is clearly stupid. But actually a lot of the time, these people. That these editors are like so bogged down with so much that inbox is crazy They might not have even seen your email. They might not have opened it It is always worth at least one follow up if not two so just keep that in mind as well that before you start letting your mind spin out and imagine worst case scenarios and And you know thinking it's just not right and that they're like, oh no stupid idea.

That's not that's generally not true Probably like 70 at the time. They haven't even seen the email

[00:18:32] YD: Yes. Oh my God. I love that. And that is, that is so true. I talk about this all the time as well. Like we have to follow up. It's crucial actually. So many times I've got stories assigned on follow up and they're like, Oh, thanks so much for following up. I missed it. You know? So that's, that's totally right.

And something else you mentioned too, which is getting out of our own minds because our minds in this situation are our worst enemies to be honest, because we keep coming up with just really, really bad. Scenarios for why this, this pitch is not being answered. But honestly, the, the most likely scenarios is literally that they just haven't seen it,

[00:19:06] EB: Absolutely, if you don't mind i'd love to talk a bit more about what happened when I was pitching the l article because it was a really good lesson for me So I had the idea I decided that I in my mind I was like new york times is where I want to publish this So I went about and did all the reporting.

It took a lot of work, but I knew that I had a very strong pitch. I sent it and the editor from the New York Times got back to me pretty much immediately and said, thank you so much. Really love this. however, I've not worked with you before, so I just need to check. In the last three years, have you taken a freebie from the industry?

And I was like, she was like, we have a very strict ethics policy. And if you have taken a freebie, then we cannot work with you. And I was like, well. Yeah, of course, that's the point of being a travel journalist, no? and I totally get that when you're a big legacy publication like the Times, ethics are so important.

but it felt difficult to navigate because it was the middle of the pandemic. I hadn't been on a trip for two years. And I was like, okay, well, I'm just going to be, I think I have to be honest. Because I didn't want to burn any bridges. So I was honest with her and I said, Okay, my last trip was two years ago.

However, all of the reporting, all of the sources, this is all completely original. It is in no way related to any freebie I've ever had in the past. And she said, Thank you so much for being honest. Come back to me in a year. No! So I was devastated for a while, but I dusted myself off and I...

Started sending it to other editors. I think I probably pitched it to about 11 people. I had a couple of people who were vaguely interested, but ultimately passed. the editor from Elle, who I ended up working with, she got back to me an entire month after I'd originally pitched her. she was like, I'm so sorry, my inbox is crazy, I like starred this to respond later, and it's just, I haven't gotten around to it.

If it's still available, I'd love to work with you on this. And I was like, great. So I responded to her and said, brilliant, it is still available. And I love Elle, that's one of my like top tier publications that I wanted to write for. So, she was like, great. And she was, she asked me to expand a bit on what I was thinking with the structure and how it would all flow.

So I got back to her, she didn't reply to me. She didn't reply for a full other month. So at this point I thought that she was not interested. But ultimately she did get back to me. We did work together on it. I think it's a strong article. It was published. I, there were so many moments where I thought, I doubted myself.

And I thought, you know what, maybe it isn't a good idea. Like, nobody wants it. Nobody's responding to me. And it's just going to get dropped. Maybe I should just give up on the idea. but it ultimately ended up getting optioned and now there's hopefully it's going to become a scripted TV series.

[00:21:39] YD: Oh my goodness. Congratulations.

[00:21:42] EB: Thank you. So it was such an important lesson in like, you know, trust your instincts. If you think you have a good idea, keep following your nose, like keep, you know, digging into it. Don't give up when you don't get a response from an editor. Keep going because it will find a home. and that, you know, sometimes the outcome is better than you ever could have imagined.

[00:21:59] YD: absolutely wow. I remember now you mentioning this, when we spoke earlier about the options, story, I didn't realize that this was the one. That's amazing. that's. 

[00:22:08] EB: Yeah, 

[00:22:08] YD: oh my goodness, so many, so many things you said there that I just want to respond to. First, can we just talk about a little bit about that policy of the New York Times, which I think is so outdated and so unfair, to be honest, because I mean, who can not work in the industry with, you know, with press trips, with tourism boards, and can afford to be a prolific writer and go on all these trips on their own.

 to do this and to go on our own, then, then you can demand that policy, but otherwise, I don't know.

[00:22:37] EB: write exactly that and I don't know how much they would have paid me But I'm sure it's not enough to make it worth it but I think that probably most of the people who write for the Times travel section are not travel writers by trade They're probably other types of journalists And all of the trips that they're going on have been under their own steam and on their own dollar.

so that is something that, because it's still on my list of publications that I desperately want to write for. So, I'm keeping that in mind. You know, when I accept a freebie, it's going to have to be a seriously good press trip. And, you know, there are different tiers of press trip as well. And it needs to be, like, worth that.

Because, yeah, it's a hard policy to get around.

[00:23:12] YD: Definitely. But also, and also, by the way, there's also exceptions to that because not all desks at the New York times are the same, you know, so the trouble that maybe this hyper vigilance of that policy, but others are not, but yeah, I think it's frustrating to be honest. You know, we've had this conversations in the industry, even last IMM.

I don't know if you were there. but you know, Nikki, our mutual friend, Nikki Vargas, who's also, by the way, on the, podcast, you guys know her, she's been on the podcast several times, she's a great, editor and, and, and person in the industry to know, you know, we had this conversation again, like if you're against this policy, pay writers better so that we don't have to take free trips to go and do our work.

You know, it's. Otherwise, it's just not sustainable. 

 I love, I love, what you said about, you know, not giving up on your idea and, and looking for a home until it finds a home. We talk about this all the time, too, in the Travel Media Lab community, that if you believe in your idea. And sometimes...

Like you said, you're going to start having doubts because nobody's biting on it, but you have to keep pitching it either way because this is your work, you know. I just had a similar story to yours that I would just quickly share that, it took me two years to place one story that just recently got published finally.

It's a story on the,very, like, intense, centuries old practice of, dyeing textiles with indigo in Austria and Germany. It's a beautiful practice, you know, I wrote this whole story about it, I documented it. And then I could never pitch it or I could never place it. Nobody would take it. And finally now, BBC travel took that story and, you know, I was so happy that, that they took it.

And then about a week before it was to be published, I got an email from the New York times asking me if that story is still available 

[00:24:57] EB: Oh my goodness! 

[00:24:59] YD: almost a year after,

you know, so yeah, you just never know. You just, you just never know what happens with your work, but if you believe in it, if you want this, you have to keep, keep pitching.

[00:25:09] YD: I want to actually kind of segue into another part of the discussion, which I think is super important, which is that knowing all this, right. Knowing how many obstacles there are to. placing a publication or placing a story in a publication, knowing that sometimes it can take a while knowing that sometimes your pitches get lost and all that it is then pretty reasonable to assume that it's really hard to rely on pitching and on these stories, being your only source of income due to this nature of you.

The industry due to how unreliable communication is due to, you know, the time that it takes sometimes to place the stories. So let's talk about that, right? What else can writers, journalists, creative people do? Because for me, at least, the fact that, it's unpredictable is definitely a drawback. But the flip side of that is that I am a master of my fate.

I am not tied to a corporation like I used to be when I was a brand manager before, and I had no time to dedicate to anything else outside of my career. And so now I'm basically working on projects that I want to be doing. And I'm, You know, whatever I'm creating, whatever, whatever I'm working on is mine.

And all of the revenue is mine versus when I worked for a corporation, I was just a very small, tiny piece of this huge puzzle, right? So let's talk about that. Cause I know you have so much experience in diversifying your income and making sure that you're not relying upon just any one sort of income stream.

And I think that's so important for, for people in our industry to consider.

[00:26:51] EB: Yeah, I think, like, my career looks totally different than I thought it would when I first graduated and was looking for my first job. You know, I was imagining that I would be working as, like, Editor in Chief of Elle by now. Print. I think I was imagining it, like, It would be the 80s and the Conde Nast heyday or, you know, like when everyone had huge expense accounts and was like, had a chauffeur.

That was what was in my mind. And when I actually had graduated and was looking for a job, it was, I don't want to date myself too much, but, um, it was, uh, during the era where like blogs were becoming massive and bloggers were suddenly sitting front row of fashion shows and. It was like the democratization of publishing, really.

and then, you know, since then so much, is different. And I think you have to be willing to be a bit of a multi hyphenate. I mean, you're a perfect example of this. Like you're a real entrepreneur. And I don't think I am an entrepreneur at heart. I'm not great at that side of things. So. I think for me, it's just thinking like, okay, I'm a writer.

I've always been a writer. That is what I'm good at. How can I make more money from being a writer? And some of that is, you know, thinking outside the box. So maybe it's not necessarily journalism. Maybe you also throw in a bit of copywriting because copywriting is a lot better paid than journalism for the most part.

actually my husband is, a copywriter, creative copywriter and advertising. And I think he in like a week what I earn in a month, so it's a big difference. I'm like, I chose the wrong writing. But, there are ways that you, especially as you carve out a niche for yourself and you have a real beat that people know you for, you can start reaching out.

So for me, I have written a lot about wellness, so I've worked with some wellness brands like ClassPass and Under Armour on some of their copy and different projects that they've got going on. that's on a freelance basis, when you're a freelancer, you have to remember you can charge like much higher fees for that kind of contracted work, and there is quite a lot out there, you know, there are also agencies that, like a copywriting agencies that you can, you can reach out to and see if they need any other writers, and it also, some of that saves you from having to From having to look for your own gigs because an agency will just bring the gig to you. so that's a good tip. 

[00:29:01] YD: before we go to another one, can you just, like how do people find some of those gigs? So I understand that, it's agencies and how do you find these agencies? Is it really as simple as Googling, copywriting, marketing agencies, and then kind of seeing what pops up and reaching out to them, or do you go on Under Armour's website and start looking for their postings or like, how do you practically get into that part of the stuff?

[00:29:24] EB: I think, to be honest, I haven't done as much seeking out. A lot of it has just come to me. because again, of like, the longer you're in this industry and the more people you know,

the more people will come to you and say, hey, are you available? Because one of my clients needs a copywriter.

And I'll be like, yes, great. I think LinkedIn. As much as it makes me cringe a lot of the time is a useful tool to let people know what you're doing like one time I remember I updated my LinkedIn and I think it automatically pinged all of my contacts, which I was like, No, I didn't mean to do that.

But from that, I had like three people who, cause I'd written like freelance, writer, editor, copywriter. And I had a couple of people reach out to me and be like, Hey, I need a copywriter. And so I randomly got, got some work through that. so I think it's a lot of it is working your network to be frank, but I do think you can also look up those agencies and reach out to them.

I can also, I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I have actually worked with agencies to hire writers. to produce content for me so,I can look those up and let, you know,

[00:30:23] YD: Oh yeah, maybe that, that would be great. And we can add 

it to the show notes. So people 

have, 

a link to start. Awesome. Okay. What are some other ways in which people can diversify their revenue streams?

[00:30:34] EB: So I think, I mean, to go back to the Elle article there's so many content streaming services now, Netflix, HBO, Hulu, et cetera. They're always looking for new commissions and a lot of them are based on articles. So I think since this has happened to me, I've begun thinking. How can I find stories that are more cinematic, and there's no way that you can definitely know they'll get optioned.

But from one article, you could make like tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of dollars if it does go into production. You know, so it makes it infinitely worth it if you can find those angles. I have friends who, they scour like, local news sites for quirky stories, and from there start digging into them.

Or they'll randomly... Start looking, they'll type in, say, like, shipwreck, Eastern Europe. And just see if there's anything that comes up. They'll just randomly have an idea like that. And from there, they might find a story that has never really been told. And then it may get commissioned, it may get turned into, a podcast.

Or a documentary series or a scripted series. So there are, I think by thinking outside the box, ways that you can almost get double paid because you get paid by the publication that's commissioned the story. And then if it gets optioned, you get a big chunk of money from that. Although negotiating the rights is incredibly difficult.

I will say that.

[00:31:51] YD: I was going to actually ask you one of the questions that I had in the back of my mind, as you're telling the story is, is that something then that you have to watch out for, or not watch out for, but be aware of when you're. Signing that initial contract with L because then you have to really pay attention to option rights or rights to reuse this content or this idea in any way and who gets to own that.

Because I know in a lot of times, and I haven't really paid attention to that, like derivative works, let's say, I think that's what you would call it. But I think in a lot of times, publications want those derivative rights for themselves, right? Keeping them to the writer. So you really have to pay attention to that if that's one of your goals, right?

[00:32:30] EB: Yes, and I made the mistake of, I was just at that point, like I told you, so happy to have found it a home. I was like, sign it, send it off. And then when, they reached out to me and I realized I had no legal, like, standing to ask for more money or whatever because They owned all of the rights for TV and film adaption, so, that is something, that's a lesson that I've learned, and I think, I have friends who have successfully negotiated, but publications, this is a big way that they earn their monies now, they have entire divisions in house that handle adaptations, and optioning of, of articles, so, they are reluctant to give you rights, But I think there can be some wiggle room, you just have to be ready to tough it out.

and to potentially, like, seek the right legal help. obviously if you have an agent, that would be great. They can help you negotiate that things, that type of thing. Or an entertainment lawyer. I actually went through the Authors Guild because they have, when you join the Authors Guild, which is like a hundred bucks, couple hundred bucks, they have free legal services.

So when I was going through my contract and doing some negotiations with Hearst, they actually were able to look over that and give me advice on some red flags and stuff to make amendments to.

[00:33:39] YD: Gotcha. Yeah. Oh my God. It's a whole new world 

[00:33:43] EB: It's a whole new world.

[00:33:44] YD: Um, to consider, to consider thinking about, and by the way, if you're listening to this episode today, next time you're watching that Netflix show, start thinking about what potential ideas 

exactly you can uncover, because I, you know, even for me right now, like my gears are turning as you're telling me all this, because you're right, like streaming services are huge and there are so many new shows and people are looking for new ideas all the time, so.

So have, or to think about new ideas with that lens on is really exciting. Actually, that's really exciting.

[00:34:17] EB: It is cool and it, and it gives you the opportunity to do, you know, chunkier, meatier, more exciting features, I think, as well. So even if it doesn't end up getting adapted, at least you know that you've produced a really amazing piece of work at the end.

[00:34:30] YD: Totally. Oh my goodness. everyone, please go ahead and, and read, Esme's article that we've been, discussing in this episode today, because when you do, you understand exactly what we're talking about here. When she says that it's a really cinematic story and it's exciting story and interesting story and relevant story for so many people, right?

If it has trouble in it, it has. mental health and psychology in it and vulnerability and trauma and childhood stories so much in it that I can totally see now how that could be a really interesting TV show to watch. 

that's really awesome. 

well, tell us a little bit about, uh, 

Full Time Travel, you're an editor in chief of that publication. Um, so what is that about? And then, uh, your podcast. 

[00:35:18] EB: Yeah, so full time travel, is owned by actually, this is another interesting thing to think about, but, it's owned by a marketing agency. and they, they do, you know, we do marketing, we do content creation. and we also do like advertising sales, but the founders realized that they were outsourcing as they were working with these tourism boards or these big luxury brands.

They were like outsourcing to lots of other publications. And so they decided to set up their own publication 

full 

time 

travel. I came on board at the end of 2019. and so I really got to take the helm, even though it already existed. I think freelancers have been working on it previously. So it was kind of all over the place and didn't have a cohesive voice, or strategy behind it.

So the way I like to think about, You know our point of view is that it's about meaning making so travel How do you go beyond it being a nice vacation? And how do you make it an experience that's deeper than that potentially changes you? and then also while you're having this meaningful experience How can you make sure that you're treating the environment and the communities that you're visiting with respect? so how do you how do you become a more empathic? traveler yeah, so My podcast, which is, is under the full time travel umbrella, is called the trip that changed me. It's an interview format podcast. I have all kinds of interesting people on entrepreneurs, authors, lots of journalists, and they are.

Sharing with us a story of a trip that changed their life in some way. we've had some pretty high profile people on, but a lot of my favorite ones are sometimes the less known people. but yeah, it's just, it's a really heartwarming kind of a show, and I think it really speaks to the ways that, that travel can really upend you and turn your life around and send you off in a completely different direction that you never ever envisioned.

[00:37:02] YD: Yeah. Which is, I think, the reason why so many of us are drawn to it, right? to this experience of traveling, of, traveling long term maybe even, or, or traveling full time, like, your title suggests. that's really awesome. So, so who are, just, if you can share with us a few of the guests, that you've had on the podcast so that our listeners can go check out the podcast and see, see if they like it for themselves.

[00:37:25] EB: Yeah, so, well, you know Nikki Vargas. Former Guest of this podcast and a good friend of mine. she told the story of Being in a relationship and in a life that didn't fit her and then going on a trip to argentina and realizing that she needed To blow it all up break up with her fiancee quit her job and try and live In a way that felt more authentic to her which was pursuing travel writing. that's a great episode I spoke to Jessica Nabongo, who is the first black woman to, yeah, she, I'm sure lots of people know of her and follow her on Instagram. She's the first documented black woman to visit every country in the world. So we spoke about her experiences, on that adventure. And then we also spoke about what it means to be, an influencer who understands the responsibility that they have.

And that they, that they yield and she can go anywhere in the world and people may end up visiting those places. So it's about like, you know, her highlighting African nations and, also in the ways that during this journey, it was hard. It wasn't always easy. She had to like, you know, really dig deep sometimes.

And some of the encounters that she had that helped her to remember that she was having this experience, not just for herself, but for everybody who was following along and living vicariously through her.

that was an amazing episode one of my favorite ones. I have had like I said high profile people like I had Ben higgins who is a former bachelor.

I don't know if you love the bachelor franchise like I do He was great, but I loved this lady called jackie kai ellis who She is from vancouver. It kind of has an eat pray love feel this story because She, on paper, everything looked perfect. She was working as a designer. She was happily married.

Everything was lovely, but she was deeply depressed. And she realized that the only thing that was giving her joy in life was the 15 minutes a day that she walked to a little cafe and got herself A baked good a cake a pastry, whatever it was And this led her to decide to enroll in french patisserie school her husband and her moved to france to paris and then she ended up breaking up separating from her husband and she moved to Paris permanently.

She opened her own bakery, and a little food tour company, and she wrote a cookbook and a memoir and has just achieved such amazing things. And it was just such a nice story of how, like, sometimes you need a complete refresher, and the only way to do that is to leave, leave your life, your current life, and go somewhere new and to see new possibilities for yourself.

[00:39:45] YD: Mhm. Mhm. That's such a good way to put it because, yeah, I think that's also why one of the biggest reasons why I'm drawn to travel is because when you're suddenly placed in a situation that's so foreign to you, you are just thinking on a very different level and you're having thoughts and ideas and.

Things that you have never even considered and on the flip side of that, if you're always kind of going through the same routine, you're, you're stuck sort of in the same environment that you've always known, it's hard to get those new ideas. It's hard to, have new thoughts come into your head. So I think, that's one of the reasons why probably.

Some of these trips are so powerful, right? Because we're just thrown into this completely new environment and suddenly we discover something about ourselves that changes everything. 

 So season four,the first episode is Laurie Williver, who is a chef and an author and the former assistant of Anthony Bourdain. 

[00:40:40] EB: so she's going to be sharing the story of a trip that she took with Bourdain to Sri Lanka for his Parts Unknown show.

and it's just really... She's really great and has had so many amazing experiences. This was the first trip that she took as a sober person, which was challenging, because think about how many times, You think about the habitual way that you drink when you go to a new place, you know, you try the dish and then you try the local beer or the local wine.

so that was, that was huge to get over, but it was, it's also so nice to hear those insights from her about Bourdain, who everyone just loves and is amazing. But very, it was very humanizing, interesting to see a more vulnerable side of him through her eyes.

[00:41:16] YD: Oh, I can't wait for that episode. Of course, Anthony Bourdain was a favorite of so many of us, right. Who who are in the industry, but also as people, I think he was just one of the loveliest human beings. out there. So that's really special. And by the way, you guys, I'm going to be on that podcast as well.

[00:41:32] EB: Yes, I'm excited to have you. Little podcast guest swap.

[00:41:35] YD: totally. So, so definitely check out the podcast. It's called the trip that changed me with Esme Benjamin, and we're going to link to it in the show notes as well. so you guys can check it out. 

 So tell me, I'm curious about your, um, experience in the industry. 

For the most part, you know, especially when I was starting out first few years or so, it felt like the industry was so guarded and there's so many gatekeepers. And if you didn't know who you needed to know, if you didn't know the right people, you had no idea how to start.

and even I would say it felt like there's just so much competition and everyone else Or like people were not too open to sharing their ideas or their contacts or what have you because it's like, it's like the scarcity orientation of, well, if I'm sharing it with you, you're going to take it away from me, I feel like it's changing now. It's becoming more open. People are much more. open to sharing and to collaborating, you know, I'm doing something in the industry, but even beyond what I'm doing, I see a lot of people who are teaching, who are sharing, who are building stuff, you know, which is awesome, but I'm curious to see how your experience has been, in the industry, navigating all of that and who were some of the women who really impacted, your growth, your path in this industry as well? 

[00:42:58] EB: Interesting. I think that it's one of those things where I feel like the energy that you're putting out is gonna come back to you. And I don't know if you've ever heard of shine theory. I think originally It was invented by, Aminatou Sow and, and Anne Freedman of the podcast, Call Your Girlfriend.

Missed that podcast, it was so great. but the idea is that, like, if you shine, I shine. Like, you know, lift each other up. It's a cliche, but I feel like it's, it's real. If you can give, like me and Nikki are a perfect example of this. think of each other all the time for other opportunities. We include each other all the time in what we're doing.

You know, I was a contributor to her Wanderess book, which she talks about on her episode, with you. and I've given her like various speaking engagement opportunities through full time travel, all kinds of stuff. So I think. you know, share, share with your fellow writers and they will share with you.

I think that's huge. and again, like honestly, my friends, my friends, it will inspire me. Like it's so important for writers to have that circle. And I know that this is what you're doing a lot with your work is like understanding that your, peers, they're your first editors. They're your, you know, they can give you so many thoughts.

They're your sounding board. so. It's amazing also for you don't work like on staff in an editorial setting where you have an editorial meeting each week and you can be like, Oh, I'm thinking of this and then people will jump in and give you their thoughts and make the idea stronger. If you don't have that, you really need a circle of writer friends who you can bounce ideas off of.

You know, can you meet up with them on Zoom once a month and everyone says, Hey, like I've got this foggy half formed thing, but maybe it's something, maybe it has potential. Because. Without doubt, they will come back and say, Ooh, yeah, have you thought about this angle? Have you explored this? I know this person you should speak to.

And you'll find those groups, also online, like again, Study Hall. There are so many generous people around, I think, in this industry who understand what you've been through and how to get their start somewhere. and yeah, I think it's all about finding that circle of friends and writers. with, 

[00:44:57] YD: I agree. I couldn't agree more. Yeah. It was so lonely for me in the beginning and I, I didn't have that, you know? So, I think your work just becomes so much stronger when you have a second set of eyes or, or several to bounce it off of, or, or to share your ideas with. it's super important. And I actually loved also.

Once you get to the stage where you're already pitching and stuff, I, I love actually that interaction between the editor and the writer, where the editor also makes your work stronger. That's actually one of my favorite parts of this process, where they come back with edits and I'm like, Oh my God, this is even a better story.

You know, you're so excited about it.

[00:45:34] EB: but sometimes it's also important to acknowledge that sometimes when you get those edits, you're like, Oh, like you don't always feel great about them. Sometimes you might disagree and it can be a conversation, you know, it's a collaboration, but ultimately like editing makes work so much better and so much stronger.

so even those times when maybe your ego is a little bit dented, just know that it's going to be worth it in the end.

[00:45:56] YD: That's true. Oh, that's such a great point because you know, I really believe that in, at the end of the day, you're the owner of the story, right? You're the owner of the idea. And so you shouldn't be afraid to push back when you see the edit that actually happened to me a couple of times. Now that you mentioned it, that like when they come back with something that either doesn't make quite sense or is taking it into a direction where you're not really think it's appropriate, then you.

You can and should push back and say, no, it's actually, you know, such and such, even when you're just starting out, you are the owner of the idea. This is your work. And so you should totally be open to doing that. And yeah, it's a collaboration. You're absolutely right. It's not a one sided street. So that's so true.

So, oh my goodness, Esme, I don't know how, how we've,talked through so many different things on the podcast. And it really feels like we're just kind of starting to scratch the surface. And, you know, I don't know about you. I sometimes listen to those like one and a half to two hour episodes, but.

[00:46:53] EB: I love a long episode.

[00:46:54] YD: I don't know if I should start doing that now because I say that almost at the end of every interview where I'm really, resonating with the guests and where the guest has just so much amazing things to say, that I just feel like we're just getting started, but, but it's time to wrap up and start wrapping up.

 I wanted to ask you a couple of questions to just sort of. For us to start wrapping up. And one of them is what are you, most excited about, in your life right now? I know you had some interesting changes or exciting changes happen in your life recently. So what is, coming up for you as some of the most exciting things right now?

I

[00:47:29] EB: Yeah. Well, I did have a baby nine months ago after,

many years of being like, I don't think I want to be a mum, maybe I want to be a mum. because I do think it's It's hard for women when you're ambitious to think about taking a step back from work or like how you're going to have to reassign your priorities, you know, that's something that's crucial when you become a mother.

but I'm, I'm so excited to travel with her and show her the world. And I also want to show her an example of what it is to be someone who. You know, does work that's important to them and, you know, pursues their passions. And I hope that she'll do the same. I'm so this is probably a little premature, but I'm working on another podcast just in my, it's purely like a passion project doing it in my own time.

it's called the legacy is I'm hoping it will come out around the summer, but it's about that time in a woman's life when her, ambition and her biological clock start bumping up against each other Yeah. Yeah. And she needs to decide like, does she want to birth a baby or does she want to birth a book or, you know, a TV show or a business or like try and do some combination of all of those things.

And like, how do you do that? How do you prioritize? How do you push through when you're tired and you've got a million things on your plate? and if you decide that, you know, you don't want to do the motherhood thing, you want to stick with career. Like, how do you speak to people about that when there's a lot of judgment from society?

so, yeah, I've already done three interviews. I'm hoping to do a few more and get just a range of perspectives, from people who have chosen, like the career is the thing and they know they don't want to be a parent, excuse me, they know they don't want to be a parent to, You know, people who are ambivalent and aren't really sure what that looks like.

and then friends of mine who are writers and published authors, and they have two kids now, and they're like, how does this, what does this look like with two children? And like another book that I'm trying to work on. yeah, so I'm excited about that as well in the future.

[00:49:18] YD: Oh, I'm so glad you, you mentioned that, I'm going to be looking for it because this is so relevant in my life right now. exactly that question that you're exploring in the podcast, right? What is that trade off or what is that not even trade off, but maybe that relationship or that dynamic between the two it's yeah.

very relevant for me, so 

[00:49:37] EB: Good. I'm glad to hear. I hope it resonates with lots of women. but yeah, I'll let you know when it's live. I hope it's gonna be a thing.

[00:49:43] YD: that's awesome, really cool. what would you say to someone who is interested perhaps in, starting in this career, starting to, to write travel stories, starting to work with publications, but perhaps is not sure of what steps to take, or perhaps hasn't had the formal education,in this career, what would you say to them?

[00:50:05] EB: I would just say, be bold. I think like, sometimes I think it can feel like, who do I think I am? Thinking I can have this kind of career. That, you know, everyone else is maybe doing something that feels like drudgery and I want this amazing life that blends travel and writing and all the things that I care about.

But, if you know that's what makes your soul sing, then you should 100% pursue that and be bold in your pursuit of that. You know, do email editors follow up email brands and see if they, if you can do copywriting for them, just get out there, put yourself out there as much as possible. Even if self promotion doesn't come naturally to you push through that.

and yeah, just, just go for it. I don't think there's, there's ever like a great time or a moment when, when it feels like you're ready to take that leap, but boldly and it will all work out.

[00:50:53] YD: Oh, I love that. I love that so much, Esme. I believe in that so much as well, that you really have to put yourself out there, and even if you are afraid, because many of us are and will be afraid, that's very natural. But even so you have to take that initial step because until and unless you start putting yourself out there and putting yourself in front of people and telling them who you are and what you do, not much is going to happen.

So it's just such a, such an important reminder for all of us to, to 

put ourselves out there. I 

[00:51:24] EB: and like, you know, don't wait for somebody else to legitimize you, you know And you don't have to be you're not only a legitimate writer if you've been published by the New York Times if you write you're a writer and that's all that matters.

[00:51:37] YD: Yes. Thank you for that reminder. Oh my God. So many times we talk about this on the podcast that, you know, I'm not a real writer or I'm not a real photographer. Yes, you are. You can get better. Of course you can get better. You can develop your craft. that's a whole other conversation, but you are, if you write, if you put words on a page, you are a writer.

Such a 

beautiful reminder. Thank you so much. Um, okay. Last question. And it's a kind of a big one. But how would you start thinking about what does it mean to be a woman who is stepping into her brilliance today?

[00:52:13] EB: For me right now. It is Knowing, like, when to push and when to rest, you know? I think, I read this thing the other day, I think it was a tweet that said, If all you've got today is 70%, and you've given 70%, then you've given it 100% of what you have. and so there are so many things in our lives that make it hard to like be the incredibly productive person who's completely on top of that, you know, everyone knows the feeling of getting to the end of the day and then having to move those tasks that you haven't completed over to the next day and it feels terrible. but I think, yeah, just accept that there are moments for really pushing yourself, and there are moments when you can give yourself a break, and that's absolutely fine.

[00:52:53] YD: Oh, I love that so much. And I needed to hear that today. Actually, that's very relevant for me today and for our podcast listeners who who are listening to this, via their podcast app and not on YouTube, where we have a video recording of this. I was clapping the whole time Esme was.

Speaking now in the past 10, 15 minutes, I was just really clapping and really rejoicing and everything that, you had to say, I think that's beautiful and a really good place to, to stop. thank you so much Esme. I really enjoyed talking to you today. I don't know how this hour went by fast. 

[00:53:29] EB: I feel like I've been having a coffee with a friend.

[00:53:31] YD: I know, same. we'll have to get you on the podcast again. Maybe when your other one, When the legacy one is,is launched, maybe we'll do another episode or something and talk more because there's a lot of issues that we just only scratched the surface on today. And I would love to get even deeper into some of these with you.

but it's been an absolute pleasure to have you on the podcast. Thank you so much for your time and for our listeners, definitely check out everything Esme is doing. We'll link to it in the show notes and, I'm sure you'll find it very valuable as well.

[00:54:03] EB: Thank you so much. I appreciate it.

[00:54:05] YD: Thank you so much for listening to our podcast today. If you've been enjoying listening to our show, please take a moment to leave us a rating or review on Apple podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode on social media. Our lovely opening theme music this season, A Bar El Shams, is provided by Rawan Roshni, a Palestinian Balkan singer based in Jordan, who experiments across genres.

Our partner this season is Visit Jordan. My name is Yulia Denisyuk. And I will see you next week. Take care and safe travels.