S4 Bonus 04: 5 Insights On Asking For More Money

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[00:00:00] Welcome to the Genius Womxn Podcast. I'm your host, Yulia, Denisyuk, an award-winning travel photographer and writer with work in some incredible publications like National Geographic, AFAR Magazine, and more. And this year you see my name in places like Conde Nast Traveler. I'm on a mission to help other women who want to grow their trouble, storytelling, careers, go after their dreams while feeling supported, worthy, and bold. If you're ready to ditch your fear and doubts to the side, step into your brilliance and take action on your dreams. You're in the right place. Let's go.

[00:00:40] Welcome back friends all this month. We're continuing to share with you various conversations we have inside our membership, the circle as we gear up for the return of season five of our podcast today, I would like to share with you in an incredibly important conversation we had during one of our monthly calls inside the.

[00:01:00] Each month I set a theme we should focus on for the month and our recent theme was asking for more money. So in today's episode, I'm sharing with you the five insights on reframing, why we need to start asking for more money way sooner than we think. We dedicated the rest of the workshop to the mechanics of how we ask for more money.

[00:01:22] And so the actual conversation and negotiation I had with an editor when asking for a higher rate, this whole workshop and all of our workshops and conversations are available to you when you join us over@geniuswomen.com slash circle. All right, let's dive in. 

[00:01:41] Welcome everyone again to our monster. Um, monthly workshop. And this month in November, it's the theme that is super important to all of us, super important to freelancers, super important to people in the creative fields. Um, so I'm really excited that we're talking about this and you know, if you have, if you have questions, feel free to stop me right away and let's talk about it right away, rather than waiting at the end, because there's a lot that we're going to be covering today.

[00:02:13] Um, so, so let's do it that way. Sounds good. But empathy. Um, okay. So the theme for November is asking for more money when we negotiate our rates and. Some of you have perhaps seen the discussion that's had, I actually started in this circle in our space. Um, so that was a preview of my philosophy of it.

[00:02:41] Right. But what I think about asking for more. Um, and, and we're going to go into more detail on it, but to summarize it, um, in the past, maybe 10 to 15 years, the rates in the freelancing industry and particularly in the travel media industry have been going down and down and down and down, and it's a really, um, really bad.

[00:03:08] Really disturbing trends. And there are sort of several reasons for why that is the case. One of them is that the industry as a whole, um, has been really pummeled, uh, the publishing industry as a whole riot magazines don't have as much, um, Money as they used to have, uh, prints, uh, issues, keep dwindling, uh, more and more online is flourishing, but online, uh, doesn't pay as much as, um, as prince used to pay.

[00:03:41] Meaning advertisers don't pay as much online as they used to pay for print placements. Right. So when a publication doesn't have a lot of money, naturally, it doesn't have a lot of money to pay freelancers as well. So. We're sort of this, uh, current in the industry. And then the other, um, thing that is happening is that there's a lot more people who are now competing in this industry or, or trying to work in this industry and a lot more people.

[00:04:11] I willing to do it for much less money than before. Right? So where before let's say the whole pie was, let's say hundred people, right? Hypothetically speaking, um, all of those hundred people had certain standards or certain rates that they wouldn't go below. Now, there is, let's say 10,000 people in this industry.

[00:04:33] Right. And the more people you have, the more of the supply. You know, the, the, the supply and demand principle of economics, you're going to pay less to each of these individual people. And, and, and when, when you say less, when you say yes to a lower rate, um, you know, then publishers know that, okay, I'm able to pay this little and still get what I need.

[00:04:56] So, you know, they learn and then it's sort of this downward spiral that continues. So. Not only it's important, then we ask for more money for ourselves. Right. Because of course we want to, um, uh, increase what we earn, um, and have better living, but it's also important for the industry. Because again, when we say yes to those low rates, we're hurting, not only our own, um, earning potential, we're hurting the whole industry actually, because it's like that race to the bottom.

[00:05:28] the bottom line is that we need to ask for more money period.

[00:05:32] Right? Whenever we're negotiating and in any conversations that you guys have, let's say fast forward to five years from now, you're writing a book right on your travel experiences or whatever it is. And you're talking to publishers. You have to stand up for yourself and you have to ask for more money, uh, any, any sort of conversation where it's, it's about, um, financial remuneration.

[00:05:56] I want us to start thinking in those terms, asking for more money for ourselves. And so they I'm going to share with you first. Um, so the five different insights that will hopefully reframe. How you think about asking for more money and why you're able to do it even at this stage of your career, right.

[00:06:17] When you have a very sort of small portfolio, you're just starting out. Yes. I'm going to tell you today that yes, you should already start asking for more money at this stage. You don't have to wait until you have, you know, a bigger portfolio like I do, or, or anything like that. 

[00:06:33] Um, let, let this be your, um, What's the word, cause I didn't have this guidance right.

[00:06:41] When I was starting out. I absolutely didn't have this guidance. So yes, I waited. I only started asking for more money maybe a year, year and a half ago. I, I made it a principle to negotiate every single time. I'm in these conversations with. Uh, and we will get into this in a little bit, but you guys have me, right?

[00:06:58] You have this community, so use this already. You don't have to wait until that point to start asking for more money. You can start doing it now. And we'll talk about that. So we'll talk about the five insights that I've collected for you guys. And then we're also going to talk about the actual way to do it, right?

[00:07:14] How do you actually, like, what is the conversation with. And the most fun part is that at the end, I'm going to share with you actual literal conversations I've had with editors and the outcomes and what they responded to me. So hopefully that will be like, uh, um, a really cool, uh, inspiration for you to start doing that already.

[00:07:34] And again, don't wait. Right. You need to start asking for more money right away when you're in these conversations. Um, okay. 

[00:07:42] So the first insight that I want to share with you is that. You cannot accept the very first rate you are offered. So let's say you sent the pitch, right? Let's say the editor comes back to you and they say, okay, great.

[00:07:55] I can pay you 5 cents per word for this article when you're accepting that that's, that first rate that they offer you you're accepting the lowest rate that they're offering you. They're always going to start at the lowest end, right? Because they. On their end. Let's put us in our shoes, in their shoes.

[00:08:17] They expect negotiations. Right. Some of the people that they work with already, some of the freelancers they're going to negotiate. So of course, they're going to start at the lowest rate that they can. Right. That's the principle of negotiating starts low. And then sort of, you see where you end up. It's kind of like, um, I'm here in Jordan now.

[00:08:37] So let's use that example. I go to the shop next door, literally the vegetable and fruit shop I'm going to like when he tells me how much the food and vegetable. He expects to negotiate, right? He doesn't expect me to take it right away. It's the culture here. The culture is to negotiate for, for the prices.

[00:08:55] So it's sort of the same principle that when you're accepting that very first rate, you are leaving money on the table and you're accepting the very lowest rate that they're going to go with. Okay. Now there is academy after that, of course, because some publications and some editors have more. Um, what's the word, uh, budget power, let's say, right?

[00:09:23] Some of them, they have very strict guidelines on what they can pay. And let's say it's $1, a word for travel and leisure. Right. And that's across, across all of their editors across all of their publications that will they pay well, if it's $1, a word across the whole publication and they don't have budget assigning.

[00:09:44] Probably not much you can do there. Right. But in a lot of these cases, they, they do have a lot of wiggle room actually have quiet, quiet, more wiggle room that you guys, um, uh, probably think so again, don't accept the first rate you're offered because that's going to be the lowest that they'll ever go and they accept and negotiate as well.

[00:10:04] So, uh, so think about that 

[00:10:07] insight. Number two, good editors and people that it's worth working. They want to pay you more money. They want to pay their freelancers more money. They know how hard the industry is. They know that, uh, you know, the whole pie let's say has, has shrunk over the years. They know how hard it is to be a freelance freelancer in this industry.

[00:10:32] They probably haven't been been that freelancer themselves at some point. Really good editors are going to want to give you more money. And I've had like, I'm not just right. I'm not just sort of taking this out of thin air. It's my experiences, uh, that, that I've had in myself. Like I've had these conversations.

[00:10:52] People have been apologizing to me, Yulia. I'm so sorry. I only have this much to pay for this. I don't have more. I wish I, I wish I did. Right. I would've given it to you. So when you're in these conversations, And you're sending that email asking for more money. If an editor comes back saying, are you out of your mind, that's a red flag for you that this is probably not the publication and the editor that you want to work with because good editors who understand how this industry works, they absolutely want to give you more money.

[00:11:25] So when you ask, um, their response is not going to be, you know, out of your mind, okay. 

[00:11:32] Um, inside number three, when you ask for more money, it also signals to that editor that you value your work. And that is so important. You guys, that is so, so, so important. Imagine you're, you're, you're in a conversation with somebody at Conde Nast and imagine for whatever reason that they, uh, Are in the budget, cutting mold or whatever.

[00:12:03] And they're like, we just need to get the story. We can pay you five again, 5 cents per word on the story and you say, sure, I'll take it. Yes, I'll take it. That is a signal to that editor that you don't value your work. That much, you value it at 5 cents a word. Right? So. Start thinking about these financial conversation through that lens as well, because when you're agreeing to a certain rate, this is also a brand building conversation for yourself.

[00:12:34] That's a conversation that says, oh, I know Kim Kim does work for 5 cents a word. That's how she values her work. Or I know Samantha, Samantha only does 50 cents. A word is the lowest that she'll go because that's how much she values. Right. We use pricing as a signal for the value of a work in, in many different situations.

[00:12:57] Right? Think of Chanel bags versus a, a cheap knockoff. It's kind of the same thing, right? We'll use pricing as a way to understand what is the value of something. So when you're asking for more money from an editor, not only you're signaling to them that you value your work. You're also growing your own brand because over time when you have these conversations, editors will know that, you know, Yulia is a person who is, um, not agreeing to, uh, you know, uh, a rate below a certain threshold because she not like, because she, um, because that's the one that she delivers, you know, it's, it's, it's the positing into my brand of Yulia who creates quality.

[00:13:46] That you know, that doesn't work for 5 cents a word it's all part of that brand looting as well. And, um, I think it was Hannah or maybe somebody else who mentioned in our thread that, you know, how, how do I, how do I ask for more money without sounding arrogant without sounding like I'm way out of my league or, you know, anything like that?

[00:14:14] You just, you have to realize that when you're asking for more money, you're not being arrogant again, you're, you're building, um, you're, you're showing yourself them that you're valuing yourself at a certain level, but the thing is you guys, and that's really important is no one is going to do this work for you.

[00:14:31] Right? If you accept every first rate that you're offered, if you don't negotiate, if you sort of just take what is, to be honest, nobody's going to stand up for. Right. Like, nobody is, this is your job to stand up for yourself and say, no, actually my work is valued at not, not at X, but at Y. And what is that actual Y uh, we're going to cover this, uh, later today in, in, um, in this time.

[00:15:03] It's also a bit of a moving target, because I'm going to share with you a conversation that I had with editors to actual conversations. And as I'm looking at these conversations, I'm like, man, I need so raising my rates, that that was way too low that I've offered them. You know? So meaning that, that, that target is always going to be moving right now.

[00:15:24] You may be at a, at a point in your career where you're like, wow, You know, I can't be asking for $1, a word rate. That's just too much. Like I don't have the portfolio yet. I'm just starting out right. Well in a year or so you may well be at that point where you're like, you know what I've written for this publication and that obligation.

[00:15:46] I can very confident if they ask for $1 rates and be very okay with that. So, so your target is going to be moving. But the point is that we want to start it high enough. Right. We don't want to start a started way at the bottom because when you start way at the bottom again, you're, you're leaving so much money on the table and I'll, I'll show you the actual examples of what I mean here.

[00:16:09] Um, insight number four, is that very importantly, especially for us women, we need to on link what we're paid for our work. From what we see as our own worth and value, that is what pricing ultimately comes back to. Right. Pricing ultimately comes back to how do you see yourself and what do you value yourself as, and again, what do you value your work as?

[00:16:42] And that's why when we think about asking for more money, oftentimes we feel like we're, we need to be apologetic. We need to be somehow, sorry for asking for more money, because, uh, oftentimes down below we, we don't believe that we are worth that much. Um, so to be able to ask that much, so the easiest way to sort of deal with that is to just decouple those two things.

[00:17:10] And I know it's difficult because ultimately pricing is a conversation of what am I worth, right. What, what is my work? Uh, but we need to, we need to start the coupling that. So, so try to treat your conversations about rates, separate from your conversations about your own words and just sort of see it more as a business transaction.

[00:17:34] Right. And that's where it helps to, uh, do some calculations on, you know, how many articles do I want to write from. Um, um, or how many articles do I think, realistically, I can, I can publish a month. What does that mean for the rates that I can do, right? Or if you're a photographer, um, uh, how many photos do I need to submit for each story I publish?

[00:18:02] What does that mean for how much I want to make for each story? What does that mean for how much each photo is going to be? Right. So if you, if you treat it more as a business conversation, rather than this pricing says something about my worth as a human being, it's going to be much easier for you to start having these conversations because, um, again, ultimately all pricing always comes back to, what am I worth?

[00:18:29] What am I worth as a human? What am I worth? What is my. And when it's the couple of that, it's going to make it so much easier for us. 

[00:18:38] Um, and inside number five is that budget conversations are actually editor's job. It's their job. They do this all day long. So when you ask them for more, uh, for, for, you know, to revisit the rate or to increase a rate, you're not doing something odd.

[00:19:00] The ordinary rides. Again, you're not being irrational, you're not being arrogant. It's a conversation that they have all the time. It's part of their job. So they're used to it. So there's no need to, um, to feel like you need to excuse yourself or, or apologize for something though. It's a, it's a very simple again, business transaction, business conversation, conversation.

[00:19:21] That's part of their job. Okay. So when you think about it that way, hopefully it's also easier for you to start doing that. 

[00:19:30] Um, okay, so the five insights, right? Don't accept the first rate you're offered because that's the lowest than they'll ever go. And that's not how negotiations work. Um, good editors want to pay you more money.

[00:19:44] So if you have a person that you want to work with, they will try to meet the rate that you're asking there. Absolutely try. And they will be happy when they're able to pay you more. There will literally tell you in the. Yes, there you go. I was able to find that additional money, right. Um, when you ask for more, it signals to the editor that you value your work, which is really important.

[00:20:09] Um, we need to unlink those two conversations of my words with, uh, asking for more and finally budgeting is their job. So they're used to it. So when you're asking for more, you're not doing anything out of the. Okay. Um, okay. Five insights. I'm going to stop here because then we're going to go into the actual way of call.

[00:20:31] We're going to do it, but so far, does that make sense? What I've covered? 

[00:20:35] Thanks again for listening to our bonus episodes today. I hope you found ideas. We discussed here relevant and inspiring to you. If you're interested in learning the actual mechanics of asking for more consider joining us in the circle where you get access to the rest of this workshop, visit genius women that com slash circle to learn more.

[00:20:56] Thanks again for listening and stay tuned for another bonus episode coming your way next week.