S9 E102: When Stories Choose Us With Travel Photographer Karthika Gupta

Get the show’s transcript

[00:00:00] KG: Stories come into our lives for a reason. You know, we get these stories, be it ideas, be it something we've read, or that sparks, you know, something else. They choose us for a reason. And we can either ignore it, or we can act on it.

[00:00:17] YD: Welcome back to our show, everyone. This is your host, Yulia Denisyuk, an award winning travel photographer, writer, community builder, storyteller, and entrepreneur. And today we're speaking to my dear friend and a fellow travel journalist, photographer, writer, and podcaster Karthika Gupta, who is also based in Chicago, like me, and who is originally from India. Having lived and worked almost half her life away from her home country, Karthika is very much aware of how important culture and diversity are in life and in business. And we're going to touch upon those themes in the podcast today. Her work has been featured in Vogue, BBC Travel, USA Today, Conde Nast Traveler. Foders, AFAR, Travel and Leisure, Rob Report, and more.

Karthika is also the founder of Culturally Ours, a platform dedicated to promoting cultural understanding and celebrating global diversity. Culturally Ours explores lifestyle, food, art, travel, and culture from around the world through retreats, narratives, stories, and conversations. And the new season of the Culturally Ours podcast is starting soon. So be sure to follow Culturally Ours on whatever platform you're listening to this show right now.

In this episode, Karthika and I cover great distances. We travel to the flower markets of Mumbai, the deserts of Jordan, and the sustainable farm run by one of the smallest tribal nations in California.

Karthika shares with us the backstory to her latest work for Vogue magazine, the motivation that enables her to keep pitching her beautiful stories and get published in places like Vogue, AFAR and others, and how knowing people from places we visit can exponentially increase our understanding of the world.

We also talk about the misconceptions of traveling to the Middle East and why traveling with her two children is Karthika's favorite way of learning something new about herself and others. If you want to learn more about Karthika and her work, be sure to follow her on Instagram at karthika Gupta, and we'll also link to her work in the show notes as well.

This episode and the entire season of the show is brought to you by Visit Jordan. Be sure to visit myjordanjourney. com to learn more about this beautiful place. That's myjordanjourney. com. All right, now let's get started with our conversation with my dear friend and colleague, Karthika Gupta.

My friend, Karthika, welcome to the podcast. I'm so excited to have you on again.

[00:02:59] KG: Thank you, Yulia. Thank you for having me again. This is such a pleasure.

[00:03:03] YD: I know. And you know what I was thinking about? It's just like, cause you were on the podcast in our first season, when we first started out. And by the way, we had an amazing conversation then you guys, you should check it out. We'll link to it in the show notes. But I was just thinking about how, wow.

The progress that or the evolution that the show has made because it's like we started over here and now we're over here and it's kind of cool to think about that.

[00:03:28] KG: Yes, including a name change, which is pretty cool.

[00:03:31] YD: Yes, which by the way, you guys, Karthika was integral in helping me coming up with a name that we have right now, for the podcast, so. She's awesome in more than one way. but there's some interesting things coming, in that realm, too, next season. I won't get into that much right now, but stay tuned for more surprises, I would say.

but I'm excited. I'm really excited to talk to you. you know, we always have amazing conversations on and off screen. And so, I'm just really honored, that you're back with us today, so welcome.

[00:04:04] KG: Thank you for having me again. It's truly an honor.

[00:04:06] YD: Awesome. so I want to start with, your recent story for Vogue magazine named, How One of the Smallest Tribal Nations in the U. S. is Redefining Sustainable Living. It is such a beautiful story, and it's so beautifully shot, by the way. The images are just... beautiful, like the way you've portrayed these women, it was breathtaking.

So I definitely encourage our listeners to also go check out the story. We're going to link to it in the show notes. but tell me, what do you love about the story?

[00:04:39] KG: all of it. it was just an unbelievable experience from the start to the finish. There's a lot of elements to this story. so I actually met these women. About a year ago, I was on a, on a fam trip with Visit California, they were just launching their Visit Native California, which is an incredible endeavor, because they're focusing on indigenous and, communities and, tourism from an indigenous lens, right?

So, we met these women for dinner.

And, something about them, just like, their presence, their, you know, and we were, we were sitting at a long table. I was sitting across with a couple of the women that I've eventually went on to like meet and, interview and just, you know, it was, they, one of the smallest tribal nations.

They are, I think they're like seven adults, and like 12 children. So total, you know, under 20, being over a square, one square mile,of, in terms of like reservation land, but they had some small but incredible and impactful programs that they were working on to become self sustainable, I should say, to get more control over, you know, their lives, their reservation, just everything that they wanted to kind of do for themselves.

And the story was that, you know, they are At one point, their mom, was the only living adult who was managing this entire reservation. And then she called, you know, she had some health issues and she eventually, passed away because of those health issues. And so the two girls came in, the Chairwoman Amanda, who then called up her cousins and said, Hey, I can't do this by myself.

You guys have to come. So it's like all the kids sort of moved away. The kids kind of came back together, to build this, community, this endeavor, right? So for me, that was very, very powerful. I saw a lot of sort of similarities in, I lost my mom too, to breast cancer and, you know, she was a very strong influence in my life and a lot of my journey after she passed also kind of morphed where I kind of, you know, took a step back and then I kind of got myself together, looked at other skills and, you know, I'm kind of doing what I'm doing now.

So I attribute a lot of that to my journey with my mom. And so seeing that with them, I don't know, maybe it was like some, you know, totally, like, internal just what I felt, but I really was very compelled to tell the story. I pitched it, and I pitched it, and I pitched it, and every time I would hear that, oh, that's nice, but No, or I would not get a response, which is very typical in our industry, right?

And then when I pitched it to, I don't know, just something about Vogue, sort of, especially the Earth to Us section, which they talk about some of these, you know, smaller communities and individuals, who are making a huge difference. And then, you know, maybe in the grand scheme of things, it's not big but for what they are doing and the communities that they are impacting, it's monumental.

So I kind of took, again, a leap of faith and I pitched it to Vogue, never imagining that, that would be get picked up like a few months later. and then the editor was like, Hey, you know, this is a great story. It will be really powerful if we can get imagery, that kind of goes with the story.

And I was like, you know, I am a photographer. Can I? You know, because it's always such a great feeling when you photograph and you write and it's like a whole holistic view, right? Versus trying to fit the narrative to the images or fit the images to the narrative. I'm not saying one way is right, one way is wrong, it's just different.

And I really again, I was so passionate about this story, I wanted to have my feet in or my hands in every aspect of it. and so he was like, yeah, sure, if you want to, go ahead. so that was, that was one hurdle actually getting it accepted and then getting, you know, the commission even to photograph.

My next hurdle was the fact that I literally had a week. because I was finishing up the summer with my kids. My daughter was now a freshman. We were getting ready to move her into college. I literally had like five business days to get this, to go to California, get it photographed and come back. and I worked... hand in hand, you know, the hats off to the Wizard Palm Springs, tourism board, the PR agency. I just sent an email and I said, Hey, this is commissioned and this is when it's due. And these are the four days that I can be there. Can we make it happen? And literally, I think everybody just said, yes, let's do it.

And we figured out a way to do it. So again, all of these forces that we're working behind,I don't know. There's something there that was, you know, that was meant to be. that's the second hurdle.

The third hurdle was, um, I missed both my flights. so four hour, four, four and a half hour, commute time from Chicago to Palm Springs ended up being like a 12 hour day, both days, both times. And I was just nervous because I literally had one day to photograph. And this, I mean, they are a tribe that's,heavily, you know, invested in, in their business and, you know. considering that there are seven adults, it's not like, Oh, we can't do it today. Okay, let's do it tomorrow. You know, we'll just move everything.

And, and I didn't even want to do that because, you know, that was a huge ask, right?

So we kind of made it work. We, you know, we, we got me there and then the, what was it, four.

The fifth hurdle was, it was 115 degrees in the desert. I'm not, I mean, I don't know about you, but I'm not used to this. I mean, yes, I'm from Mumbai and, you know, I've grown up in a humid environment, but the max I've gone to is maybe like a hundred.

And this is my desert heat. Being outside in that heat was incredibly challenging. Not just for me. But for them, and you know, even though they live there, this is like, they're doing me a favor by agreeing to kind of share their story and agreeing to be photographed.

So I was very, I was very nervous. I had extreme anxiety. I was like, Oh my God, what am I going to do? How am I going to photograph these women? And it's, you know, Palm Springs, it's beautiful, but it's when it's that hot, you don't see, It's like your mind just stops, right? You can't think creatively. so I photographed them.

I don't know, I just... One of the things that Amanda said to me was that, yeah, you know, this is... And she talked about her mom again. And that was actually coincidentally my mom's birthday as well.

I just felt like all the women power was there to make me get the story like how I wanted and for them to, even them, they were so open.

They were so like sharing and caring about, their story. And I was asking so many questions and they were patiently answering me like answering all my questions. And I just felt like collectively, it just, it was meant to be. And, thank you for complimenting me on the photographs because I know you're an incredible photographer. But it was really hard.

I wanted to showcase their strength. And I felt like, honestly, the, photographs, the portraits of the women with the feathers, which if you read the story, you'll know the meaning of the feathers. Those are my favorite because it just ties their history to,an inanimate object, but brings that object to life and brings them to life.

So yeah, all these elements sort of, you know, came together I have to say it's one of my favorite stories. For all the troubles that we've all gone through. It just, I'm so glad. And it's apparently doing really well on Vogue. So that's another, you know, kind of check Mark, I guess.

[00:11:31] YD: That's a bonus for sure, man. you know, you and I were just talking about this before we started recording, how it's so interesting to hear the backstory of the story. Now, knowing the backstory, I am even more in awe of the story because what I've actually picked up in the images is the magic.

they really look almost ethereal, almost, you know, and it's your style, by the way. I also recognized your style immediately in the images, but now, you know, I almost had goosebumps when you were talking about like all these hurdles that you had to overcome and how the day was so hard with the heat and everything, but it, it felt like really, Uh, the manifestation of the power of women coming together and doing something magical.

wow. I can definitely see that in the images now. So that's, that's really special. And the fact that it was your mom's birthday. on that day, it's just like, you can not make that stuff up, you know?

[00:12:22] KG: You cannot make that stuff up. Yeah, exactly. And I, you know, when I think back at it, as I was talking to you, I was just in my mind too. I was like, Oh my God, we all face so many challenges. Forget like Personal life in work. we face so many challenges, but when we actually are able to get something to completion and to fruition, it's just a great feeling that, you know, I thought about something, I conceptualize something

and.

Here it is. I actually made it work. It doesn't have to be, you know, this amazing story. It can be even the smallest of things, but I think that just is very powerful and goes back to your point about knowing the story, you know, knowing that backstory or knowing where it started from. And then, you know, you're able to kind of take it to completion.

[00:13:04] YD: So I have a couple of questions, on this. One is, so you mentioned that, you know, you pitched it and pitched it and pitched it and it didn't go anywhere for so long. Man, how familiar I am with that as well. What keeps you going in, in that, right? Because I've been at places where I'm just like, you know what, forget this.

I'm not even going to pitch it. But then at some point later I come back to it and I start pitching it again. So I'm curious, like what keeps you keep pitching it when you get a rejection after rejection, after no response, after no response.

[00:13:37] KG: Yeah, so for me, that's like twofold. And I will credit our common friend, Iona Brennan, for this, the first piece. I remember a long time ago, Iona telling me that, hey, you know what, stories come into our lives for a reason. You know, we get these stories, be it ideas, be it something we've read or that sparks, you know, something else.

They come to our, like, they choose us for a reason. And we can either ignore it, or we can act on it. And the effort is in the action. Because I think that, I mean, this story is not new, right? I mean, these, these, this tribe has been around for a very long time. You know, before when, before the, this current generation came back to the reservation, there was another generation.

They had an equally amazing story. So this story has been alive and been there out in the universe for a long time.

[00:14:28] YD: hmm.

[00:14:28] KG: It shows, I feel, it shows me. I just felt very strongly. About this piece. And there are several pieces. We all feel strongly about several, several stories. Right. And when I felt like I knew it was a good story because it came from the fact and the fact that I met these people, and I learned from them.

And so I was equally determined to say, Hey, you know what I want to give their voice, a space.

I want to give them a space to tell their story. And I've always believed that, like for me, the way I write and the way I kind of tell stories, it's not my, my view. It's their view. Or it's your view.

It's the people who are from there. It's their perception. So I always like to, pull myself out of the equation and tell the story, right? So the fact that this story came to me, came into my life, I almost felt like I really wanted to tell the story. And I just, I don't know, I just pushed, I just pushed myself.

even, you know, the, the vote commission was not, right off the bat. And I pitched it over, I think, spring. and, you know, it took a while for it to kind of sit and. I don't know how you, like, germinate, I guess, maybe that's the word for it. even with the editor, right? I mean, the fact that, the editor came back and said, Hey, you know what?

I know you've pitched this a while back. Is it still available? And if so, I want it. So, even that, that statement of his, like, is it still available? In my mind, it's like, okay, so, you know, stories are around, are with us for a reason, and then they move on. If I had not done anything with it, maybe it would have gone to somebody else, and they would have picked it.

So I think if you think about it from that perspective, it really kind of makes you want to keep pushing it. you know, I'm not saying it's all fun and games and, you know, it's, it doesn't hurt because it definitely hurts when you get an objection, you're like, Oh my God, you can start doubting yourself.

But I think that some narratives just, you just have a gut feeling. You've just had that intense emotion tied to that story you can hold onto that and you can kind of push that forward.

[00:16:21] YD: That is so beautiful. And by the way, shout out to Ayana, because what a wise friend we have. Like, I love that piece of advice.

[00:16:29] KG: Yes, and I have kind of told her this too. I'm like, remember you told me all of this? that story. Remember you said this? This is this other story. So

[00:16:37] YD: yeah.

yeah. And we have an episode out with Iona as well, which we're going to in the show notes. So you guys check it out as well. She, she shares so much wisdom and knowledge, in her episode as well.

You mentioned something about you being almost like a vessel for the story. It's not your story, it's their story.

Oftentimes, people ask me, how do I tell a story of a community that I don't belong to?

Or is this my story to tell? And I think this is something that we're all thinking about a lot. So what is your approach to that? Like, how do you think through that? When you are, you know, telling stories of, of these communities or, or of these women, etc.

[00:17:19] KG: I mean, this, for me, it's really not a scientific approach for me. It's honestly,it's, it's a feeling, you know, some stories, some narratives. I just don't know enough. I'm not. I don't have enough background, enough education, enough knowledge to be confident that I'm going to tell that story.

But, you know, like for this story, there were so many other elements that I could draw parallels with, with my life, the fact that, you know, their mom was such a big influence. My mom was such a big influence, their mom,kind of, didn't pass in a, in a, Peacefully, I guess. so some of those things just for me, I felt that connection.

[00:17:55] YD: Mm hmm.

[00:17:56] KG: And, you know, I was fairly confident that I could do a good job. and I just always tell myself, That it's not me who's writing, I'm writing through, they're, they're talking through my writing, if that makes sense. And so for me, that's, that's sort of how I view it. there have been a lot of instances where I've, you know, gotten an idea or a story and I'm like, that's a great story.

But I just don't know enough. and I don't know enough of the background and the history to really do a good job with it. And then I just let it go. Again, going back to, you know, that, that concept that the story chooses you, yes, that story chose me, but I was not the right fit for it when you let it go.

It'll find somebody else who is a better fit for it because it's not, yes, it's, you know, we want the accolades, we want, you know, the road byline and all of that stuff, but deep down, we all come into this business or do this thing because we want to tell stories. We want to tell these narratives, right.

And. If we do it, but don't do it right, I think that's a bigger burden to bear than to say, I'm just letting this story go because I know I'm not going to do

[00:18:59] YD: Wow, yeah, no, absolutely. And it's such a profound way to think about it. I love it. And I resonate with it too, because that's also how I approach, finding stories as well. And you know, you and I, we, we are on the same wavelength on a lot of things. So I absolutely resonate with it.

I wonder, so. Sustainability or sustainable living is a topic that you explore in this piece and in a lot of other work that you do as well. And I feel like sustainability has become one of those terms that has just been so overused. that it's almost like losing its meaning. And when people read the word sustainable, it's kind of like their eyes glaze over, you know.

There's a lot of other words like that. Community is another one.

So, I wonder, as somebody who really dedicates a lot of your work towards writing about sustainability, you know, sustainability as a topic, how do you ensure that it's a story that continues to resonate in this landscape where it's become such an overused word?

And I don't know, I'm just really curious to hear how you think about that because I think about that a lot when I, pitch stories about community or, people or whatever, and some of these terms, they're just become so overused.

I think, and, and maybe this is kind of going a little bit against the trend. Yeah. Maybe what you think I'm going to answer, but, have no idea what you're gonna say. So

[00:20:26] KG: I don't think it's overused. I think we don't use it enough. I feel like, if you kind of say something as a parent, maybe this is where I draw the parallel. As I tell my kids certain things over and over and over again, yes, part of me feels like, why am I repeating this?

The one time that I know that they will pay attention, makes it all worthwhile. Which is why I kind of feel like it's not overused. I mean, we need to kind of keep using this word because these words, these community, this, you know, authentic and, you know, all these words, I mean, we as writers feel like, oh, maybe it's, you know, done to death and overused.

But that one person who reads it, who is motivated and inspired and says, you know what, I'm going to look into a solar panel, or you know what, I'm going to look at this, this small patch of my yard that, I didn't know what to do. I'm going to try and grow some vegetables like this, tribe of nine, you know, seven people are doing. It's all worth it. it's all worth it because collectively, it makes a huge difference. I have another story in, in Thrillist about this, person in India who has, he's a landowner, and he has, ancestral land in, an area called Jabai, which is. full of leopards. And there's a tourist element to it, but there's also a lot of community development and conservation that this one person is doing.

And when I met him, and he actually, you know, got his laptop out and he was, he's manually cataloging all these leopards. There is no government oversight here. It's just him doing this. But that's making a difference. That's making a difference in his community. That's making a difference in his village.

So, no, I don't think we are overusing it. In contrast, I feel like we're not using it as much. Yes, there has to be backing. You can't just throw the word out and, you know, not have it resonate with what's... The story or, you know, the backing to it, but I feel like we need to tell more of these stories. We need to tell these stories of these seven people, this one person, this, a thousand people community that's doing something because they're the true champions.

They don't care about, will I call this sustainable or will I call this, you know, green? They're just doing it because they feel it's the right thing to do and that, it's making a difference in their lives and in the lives of the people around them. Why should we not use it?

[00:22:42] YD: That's such a beautiful way to look at it. I love it. such a hopeful way to look at it too,

[00:22:47] KG: Yes, and I, like I said earlier, I mean, I think it comes from, you know, maybe like being a parent, right? I mean, you, you know, my husband and I, we keep telling our kids, the same things over and over and over again. Sometimes we look at each other and we're like, just, why don't we just shut up? But there is that hope that, you know, in the hundred times that I tell my daughter something that one time she will actually listen and that will make an impact on her.

[00:23:09] YD: Yeah.

[00:23:09] KG: I'm going to keep saying it.

[00:23:11] YD: That's beautiful.

So you mentioned India,

[00:23:18] KG: Yes.

[00:23:19] YD: which is where you're from. You grew up in Mumbai. how do you think growing up there has affected how you move through the world today?

[00:23:28] KG: Sorry, I'm laughing because it's just so different. I mean, life when I was in India, life was very, very different for me. I had, you know, Indian, Indian community, Indian society. And it's probably, it's still the case because that's Indian culture. everybody is around you. Everybody's in your face, everybody.

And that's okay. you have your mom and your dad. Your neighbors are aunts and uncles. You have gazillion cousins. Everybody's coming over. Collective community. and we don't live in these individual homes where you don't, very rarely, I mean, there are some people who do. But in Bombay, that's very, very rare.

So I grew up in a building, you know, an apartment building that had about 20 other flats. the doors were always open. It was just us having food somewhere else and, you know, somebody else coming over. So it was just very communal feeling. And I will admit, when I first came here to the U.

S., it was such a shock, because that's not how life is here.

[00:24:24] YD: Yeah.

[00:24:25] KG: Um, you barely see your neighbors, you have no idea who they are, nobody makes an effort. and I don't mean it in a bad way, I just, you know, every, for whatever reason, right? It's not, it's not something that's innate, it's not something that's maybe kind of second nature, maybe?

so it was really hard. And, for me, just going through... I've now spent half my life in India, almost more than half my life here. So it's definitely a struggle because I've, you know, wherever you are, you kind of absorb that culture, you, you know, kind of, it sort of finds itself in your life. So I find myself becoming more of an introvert because I'm used to not talking to anyone.

And when I go back home to India, it's like. what do you want to do? No, I don't. I just want to stay back. I just want to stay at home. so it's always a struggle. But, I think it's just different. It's just a different way of life. And I don't know if, you know, maybe initially some part of that I carried forward to my life here, but now my life here is very different from my life, what was my life there.

I just try and adjust myself. Like when I go back, I, you know, I can tell myself that this is what I grew up with. this is a big part of who I am. So rather than suppress that, I kind of let that part of me out. and then when I come back, it's like this part of me comes out.

So, I think, every part of the world is so different. Every culture is so different. And if we can take a little bit of it and make it our own and just go through life, I think that's I think we're better people that way, rather than sticking to one way. This is the way I, you know, I grew up this, this way in Bombay, and if it doesn't fit in the realm of my existence here, I shouldn't force it because that just makes me uncomfortable and people around me uncomfortable.

I don't know. I don't know if that makes sense. I'm probably rambling

[00:26:07] YD: No, no, it makes sense. And it's funny that you bring this up actually, because this is a conversation that I see popping up a lot in various spaces these days. in fact, I just recently. Listen to a podcast, episode of the Ezra Klein show, which we're going to link to that particular episode, which,Ezra Klein, he's, currently a New York times journalist and he has this podcast and,he had, uh, I think, social scientists on, uh, the podcast and they were talking about this construct of single family home in the United States and what it has done to the fabric of our society.

And how it is such a recent invention in the millennia long history of how humans live. You know, because the single family home idea only came in the 50s after the war, because, you know, people suddenly became more prosperous, suddenly, the government needed to build more, build, build, build, and so they were starting building these fam, homes for literally one family, and before that, it was never the case, even in the States, which I found interesting and, and surprising, so, it was such a fascinating podcast.

If you guys are interested in this topic, definitely check it out too, because it talks a lot about how it is for humans. It is not, natural to live in that isolation. And a lot of the things that we're struggling with, like that loneliness epidemic, the mental health crisis in the States, comes from that.

The fact that we don't have a support network as robust as in some of these other places. And I'm not saying that other places aren't. You know, dealing with loneliness or mental health challenges or not, but at least they have if assuming that their society isn't becoming more westernized in the way they live.

They have the support tool of having that community and, people around them in a way that we just don't in the U S I mean, it's just a fascinating conversation, I

[00:27:57] KG: it is, it is. And as you were talking, I was just thinking about, you know, experiences growing up where,you know, my parents both worked and there were times when, they would be late and it was never a fear of, Where is Karthika going to be, or where's my, where's my sister going to be?

It was just assumed that the neighbor would kind of, you know, we would knock on the door. If nobody answered the door, we would go knock on a neighbor's door and she'd be like, Yeah, come in, just hang out. And then my mom would come or my dad would come and it would be fine. And now as a parent, I'm like, okay, like when I was working, it was like, Oh, three o'clock.

I need to like go. I need to like, cause I have to drive an hour. And I have to pick up my kids from daycare because I'm doing everything, me, myself and I.

[00:28:37] YD: Right.

[00:28:37] KG: And it's just like, not to say that somebody wouldn't have helped if I asked, but that ask is not natural. That

ask

is not,

[00:28:46] YD: Yeah.

[00:28:47] KG: normalized.

Exactly. So you feel odd. You feel like, okay, why am I, why am I burdening somebody else? You know, I should be able to figure this out. and if I can't figure it out, I'm depressed. I'm, you know, I'm upset. And eventually I quit because I, you know, I couldn't. Do everything right. again, not to say that that is the crux of what's wrong, but that's definitely a factor in how we move through life.

[00:29:10] YD: hmm. Yeah. Tell us more about Mumbai itself. What was it like living there? I've so, for so long wanted to go there and just experience the city. How, what is it like?

[00:29:24] KG: It's, you know, Mumbai is, and I keep, will refer it to as Bombay because when I was growing up it was Bombay, I know officially the name's changed to Mumbai, but,it's called the City of Dreams, and there's a reason for it, because,there's a lot of migrant population that comes in, it's the financial, you know, financial capital of India, it's, you know, got Bollywood, it's got, so it's got the movie industry, it's got, you know, the financial industry.

So a lot of people from all over India come to Bombay because they want to fulfill their dreams. They feel like it's a place where anything can happen. You can, there have been stories of,really like, you know, People who have had a very difficult time in life, coming and getting a big break in the movies and, you know, making it big.

So you have all these inspirational stories. So a lot of people come to Bombay. And I think that's what's the beauty of the city. Yes, traffic is a nightmare. Yes, you will find people everywhere you turn. And I know a lot of times, like, when I used to take people on trips to India, they would always say, oh, but it's so loud.

Oh my God, there's so many people. And I'm like, yes, it's a country of a billion people. You won't find people everywhere. You just have to accept it that it's a fact of life. But if you accept that, I think there's something so beautiful because you will meet people from all walks of life. You will meet people who are multi millionaires, who have huge apartments, and then you will meet somebody who has nothing.

I think those experiences, those stories that you experience, that you kind of absorb, really will help you experience India a lot better. it is not, anything that you will find here. know there's a lot of comparison between Bombay and New York, and yes, I get it, but it's just very different.

You know, I love going back. I love going back because I still have family there. I have some very good friends there. And that's where I grew up. So, my memories, my childhood memories are associated with, Bombay and with India. So for me, it's always going to be home. yes, homes changed.

A lot of things, you know, are different, but I think if you're up for an adventure and you know, you want, you want to meet people, you want to know these stories, it is the place. It is the place to go. For

[00:31:32] YD: I hope I can go there with you one day

[00:31:35] KG: Yes!

[00:31:35] YD: be amazing.

[00:31:37] KG: I know we've talked about this. I mean, you know, the food, just,

ah, everything.

[00:31:42] YD: You know, I've never felt more alive anywhere in the world than when I was in India. It is just,

I don't know. You feel exhilarating all the time.

[00:31:52] KG: Yes. And, you know, because there's so much energy, right? not just the people. I think the people cause the vibrations and the energy around, you know, around you. So, you know, two o'clock in the morning, I'm not saying this is true everywhere in India, but like in Bombay, two o'clock in the morning, two o'clock in the morning.

You're not going to be the only one on the street. and there are people going to be out and about you know, doing things. Um, the flower markets, I know this is another story that, you know, came out,recently in, Malaysian Airlines Going Places magazine. I talk about India's flower markets, like Bombay has an amazing flower market.

You go at two, three o'clock in the morning, there's like wheeling, dealing, and there's, you know, flowers of all colors and shades. And that just, for you, that just wakes you up. You know, you have this this view in front of you. You don't know where to look. You're like, should I look at this guy who's, you know, kind of selling roses?

Or should I look at this person who's selling jasmine? And it's just so much energy that you, you can't help but absorb some of that in.

[00:32:46] YD: I love that. I love that. And I, yeah, when you were talking about that market, I thought about the, the Tokyo's fish markets. It's like the iconic place in Tokyo and sounds like this is the, one of those iconic places to be in.

[00:32:59] KG: You know, it's not, the funny thing is it's not an iconic place in the sense that if you look at most guidebooks and stuff like that, they will not talk about going to a flower market or a vegetable market. but it's just one of those things that you have to experience just because it's so different from going to a museum or, you know, going to like the Gateway of India or going to like the Taj Hotel.

It's very different. It's just more normal people things. Um, and I think that's such a great way to experience a place,

[00:33:27] YD: You guys are getting an insider information right here. Go to the flower market in Mumbai when you're there.

[00:33:33] KG: Definitely. And every city has, you know, every city has something, right? I mean, there's like Tokyo's fish market. I mean, it didn't start off as a tourist attraction. It was just normal people going about their day buying fish. same thing. I mean, you know, the flower market or the vegetable market, or you go to, you know, a shopping mall and it's just normal people doing everyday things.

And I think from, at least that's the way I like to travel.

[00:33:55] YD: is there one flower market or multiple, or like, what's the name? If people want it to go

there, how do they find it?

[00:34:01] KG: there is the Dadar flower market, which is, I believe, the oldest flower market in Bombay. But Bombay is such a, it's grown so much in terms of just expanding and expanding and reclaiming land. I think there are about like five or six, because it's, The population is so spread out, not everybody can come, you know, from two hours away just to download.

So depending on where you are, just Google flower market and you'll find something.

[00:34:25] YD: Google help you. I love it.

[00:34:32] YD: In addition to both being in the industry and becoming really good friends. We were really fortunate, I think, to have been one of my favorite places on earth together.

recently, which is, you guys already know what this place is. I talk about it all the time.

Of course, it's Jordan. And so couple, couple, one. One or two years ago. Oh my

god, was it? Has it already been two years?

[00:34:57] KG: Yeah,

2021.

November 2021. Yeah.

[00:35:01] YD: Two years ago, Karthika and I,were in Jordan together, and, I got to travel to Wadi Rum with Karthika and her family, and it was just one of the most beautiful experiences, and... I wonder, have you felt, particularly about visiting Petra, because in one of your articles, you talk about that you first learned about Petra through going and, watching the Indiana Jones movie with your mom.

so you had, you know, you had a special memory about this place without, without ever seeing it. So how did it, make you feel when you actually went there and, and brought your own family now to Petra?

[00:35:41] KG: It was phenomenal. I mean, you know, again, this was the first Indiana Jones movie was like with 1980s. My mom was a huge adventure. She loved, loved, loved traveling. I remember seeing this movie and, and it was phenomenal. You know, the last scene where he's riding through from the treasury.

It just stuck with me. And it was just such an iconic part of Petra. And thanks to you, we got to do Petra in a very different way, I think. And I really appreciated that because, you know, going through the back entrance and hiking. And again, it was something that as a family, we love to do. We love to kind of hike and camp and we do all that.

So, kind of. Experiencing this magical place, but experiencing it my way. I think for me that just really solidified it as, a goal of a lifetime, right? Because if I had done what every other tourist does and just, you know, go to the treasury, yeah, it would be spectacular. I would, you know, I definitely have been, it would have been a wow moment.

But the fact that we got this sort of back view, and our guide was so amazing and he, you know, he shared the history of the place and he, you know, he shared his experiences, his knowledge, his life living there. I think all of that just made it that much more relatable. So when I did see that, you know, that glimpse of the treasury and I, you know, did have the memory of, kind of being in that theater with my mom, I had my kids with me, my husband with me.

It was just, it was such a. Came full circle, I guess is what I want to use. but full circle in a way that made sense, for me.

So, it's just, you know, it's just that, that experience, such an, such experiences kind of live with you forever. Yannicka, my daughter, she still talks about, kind of Wadi Rum and,

[00:37:25] YD: Really? Oh, that makes me so happy.

[00:37:27] KG: absolutely. Meeting, meeting, you know, Emma, then, you know, the team at, at the Bedouin camp. Those are memories that, you know, my kids have, will have for their lives. Again, because we did it in a way that, was very relatable to how we travel in general. so I think that kind of, you know, really helps kind of put that memory, ingrain that memory deep in your brain because you can associate with it in on so many levels.

It's not just one instance that you have a connection. You have multiple layers of connection to that story.

[00:37:59] YD: I will never forget how we were sitting on the floor at Fala's house. Remember when Fala invited us over to have lunch with him and the family? And we're all spread out and we're all eating. Oh my God, what were we, what did we have? Was it mansaf? No, I don't remember what it was. It was rice, rice pilaf something.

[00:38:18] KG: Yes. And it was like, it was on the plate and everybody was kind of sharing from that plate, right? And again, we would go to a hotel. I mean, we stayed in a hotel in Petra. Um, that's not the experience that we had. We were still the four of us, four of us at the dinner table.

[00:38:32] YD: hmm.

[00:38:33] KG: this lunch was with. The whole family,

[00:38:35] YD: hmm.

[00:38:35] KG: was so special

[00:38:37] YD: Mm hmm.

[00:38:37] KG: sticks with you.

You ask me what, you know, what was the dining room of the Marriott in Petra London, but you asked me, what was, you know, what was the living room where you ate like, and I can, if I close my eyes, it's just, I have that vision

right in front of me

[00:38:51] YD: too. Me too. Mm

[00:38:52] KG: tell you the color of the couch. I can tell you where we were sitting and those things, because it just was an experience that was very, again, relatable to me.

[00:39:01] YD: Mm

[00:39:01] KG: It

was like, oh my God, what am I doing here? It was like, wow.

[00:39:05] YD: Mm

[00:39:05] KG: am here. I am here.

[00:39:07] YD: Yeah.

Oh,

it was so beautiful. But you know, there are so many misconceptions about, this region, and so I wonder... Was there anything that you encountered in Jordan that perhaps surprised you or perhaps, something that you saw in a different way? Just talk to me a little bit about that part of it because it's the Middle East, you know, and the Middle East is the region that

I agree. I know exactly where you're going and I'll tell you my,and this is something we've talked about as well as a family before doing Jordan. And honestly I did Jordan, because of you. Right. I mean the, the stories that you've told, the experiences you've shared with me, I was like, wow, that seems like a really nice place.

[00:39:49] KG: it's the Middle East. we had never, prior to Jordan, we, in fact, after Jordan too, we've never been back to the Middle East. so there was, again, there was this, I don't wanna say preconceived notions, but there was what we were seeing, what we were hearing, what we were reading. that, you know,

gave us a view of, okay, should we do this?

Is it safe?

will we have a good experience there? And the thing that really I kept pushing was that, yes, we will, because we know this person. who shares similar values as us, who is there, who has done this multiple times, who talks about all these wonderful experiences as an outsider, I'm sure that we will have a great time.

And, you know, when we landed and when we met,I forget his name, our, our wonderful driver, not driver, our guy, Yes, we met Basel and he just, again, it was, he was so warm and, you know, welcoming and, it was comforting to know that, you know, he, as he's a, he's a dad, he's a husband. He's, you know, he's from there.

He's, he's shared his life experiences. So knowing that. At the end of the day, we're all the same. You know, we, we may live in a different place. We may look different. We might, you know, the color of our skin might be different. We might speak different languages, but we all want the same thing, right? I mean, we all want a good life to be healthy, to see our families, you know, kind of succeed and, and, you know, be happy.

None of that changes just because you live in the Middle East or you live in Chicago or you live in Tokyo. You have to go with that mindset because otherwise it's just you never step out of what you know and what you, what is in your immediate circle. And it's such a beautiful world outside of that circle.

so I'm so glad we went because Apart from what you see in the news and what you hear in the news, when you're there and you meet people who live there and you hear their stories, you realize that, again, like I said, I don't want to kind of say the same thing again, but it's just you in a different form.

[00:41:52] YD: Yeah. I love that.

[00:41:53] KG: Exactly what your life is like. in a different, you know, in different part of the world. I'm really glad we went and I'm really glad I took my kids there too because again, you know, for them it was eye opening to the fact that, he talked about his children. You know, we met, some of the other kids there and it was just, it was just a great feeling to be in their place.

That's so misunderstood. for whatever, you know, whatever the reasons, I don't, you know, I'm not going to justify whether that's right or wrong, but it's just that, you know, being there just opened our eyes to the fact that these are people just like you and me.

[00:42:25] YD: So you mentioned people a couple of times and it just makes me so happy because this is exactly what I've kind of dedicated my work in a lot of ways is, to bringing stories of people to the forefront. And I think you, you as well, you know, this is something that drives you as well, but especially in places like the Middle East, this is exactly the journey that happens that until we connect to a specific person there.

We just have this vague concept of a place, the Middle East. But once we know Basil the driver and how wonderful he is, all of a sudden, it becomes something different, you know? And that's, I think, the journey, and that's why... It motivates me so much to keep bringing stories of, of people, from all these different places.

And, I think for you as well, right? So you're a travel photographer, amazing photographer, you're a writer, you're a storyteller, you've been working with a variety of publications. We mentioned Vogue, we mentioned... Afar, Conde many others. And by the way, we'll link to Karthika's work in the show notes too, so you guys check it out.

But tell me more about this passion of yours, to bring those cultural narratives to the forefront. why is that the thing that you've chosen as the lens through which you kind of take all your work, and bring it to the world?

[00:43:48] KG: I think it's like, you know, a few different,few different reasons, right? I mean, this is not what I went to school for. This is not what I started my career as. you know, I have an IT background and I, I worked in corporate for a long time and for a while that was just who my persona was.

now when I, you know, when I meet people, I want them to know my story. I want them to know who I am, where I come from, what I've been doing, what I'm doing now. What I will do in the future. And I think that if you focus on the people and you focus on their stories, you have a stronger connection. I, you know, when, when somebody tells me, okay, like you asked me, tell me about Bombay, tell me about Indy, like, you know, your life.

I want to tell you my story, right? I don't want to tell you. Yes, I started off with the fact that Bombay is an amazing place, but you know, I kind of hope I kind of drove the point that it's the people, you know, there are a lot of people, they have such amazing stories and they have these beautiful dreams that they come for.

So for me, it's again, always the people and everywhere I go, if I don't, like I, try as much as possible to try and connect with the people on the ground, whether it's going to a local cafe. Whether it's, you know, finding a tour to somebody who's, who's from there, who's talking about, a museum, but from their lens, right?

I mean, it, for me, it's great to hear those narratives because I feel like those are much stronger narratives of a place, with the people who live there. And so much of it also comes from, you know, India, for the longest time, people had this vision of India as people are. starving on the streets and, kids, you know, kind of working in slums.

And, and yes, that's not to say that that doesn't exist, but there are also other really happy stories that come out of India. I wrote about this women's collective in Jaipur, which is, highly touristy city, but nobody talks about these little collectives that are doing amazing things for these women in terms of giving them financial stability and freedom.

And if I had not gone there, if I had not, you know, gone and visited them and sat down with them and heard their story, I wouldn't know. I would still just go to Hawa Mahal or, you know, go to the, things that Jaffa was famous for. I feel like we need to tell these stories and it's, when you and I and whoever else, you know, kind of talk about their lives, we sort of light up, right?

I mean, we light up because we are so happy sharing. small part of our lives with this other person who's asked the question, tell me about your childhood. Tell me about, you know, your life in Bombay. Tell me about Estonia. You know, it's like, I want to know. I'm, I'm, I'm curious in the sense that not because I want to make you feel uncomfortable, but I'm curious because I want to try and find a connection with you so that you are more relatable to me.

And when you become more

relatable to me, that friendship grows, right? So that's sort of always been my thing that, you know, if I'm going somewhere, if I'm meeting somebody, I want to know, I want to know a little bit of their life so I can draw parallels and I can say, yes, I understand now what you mean by that, because I went through something similar.

and I think that sort of feeds my drive for telling these stories, because a place is just a place, it's just buildings and, you know, brick walls and things like that. I think what makes it interesting are the people, their stories, their interactions, you know, the foods, the clothes, the cultural element, the temples or the mosques, whatever it is, that's what makes it interesting.

[00:47:12] YD: Oh my God, I couldn't agree more. I couldn't agree more. That's, that's exactly how I feel that it's the people that make travel so special and so exhilarating and beautiful.

I think you and I also share this other. characteristic, which is curiosity about the world,

like we were just talking before we started recording, how wide the world is, how many interesting and beautiful places they are that are so different, from each other.

And it's that, urge to. To learn more about them and to, to learn more about the people and to discover in the end that while the places are different, the people are fundamentally all wanting the same things. I think it's just such a, such a powerful belief and a mission to be on

[00:47:59] KG: Honestly, it's easier to I feel like now, there's so many ways that you can interact with. local communities and, people. There shouldn't be an excuse to say, oh, I did not find the information or I did not know where to look. And I think people like you and me kind of focus on these stories and these, these stories about people are published, that's another avenue for others to get information, right? Now you go to Palm Springs, maybe you will drive to, because they have a farm.

[00:48:29] YD: Mhm.

[00:48:30] KG: They sell produce in the farm and they have classes, educational classes in the farm. So maybe if you have time, you will, you know, remember the story and you will actually go there and you will do that. Or you will go to Wadi Rum and instead of staying in, you know, a bubble tent hotel, you will, you will stay at, The Bedouin camp and you will learn a little bit about them because Julia wrote about them or, you know, kind of we talked about this, right?

So I think there's information, a lot more information now and access to that information is also so much easier now that there shouldn't be any barriers for you to experience the place in a more richer way.

[00:49:05] YD: Absolutely. Absolutely. What I've been thinking a lot lately, though, is that the flip side of that is that there's often like too much information. You don't even know what's real and what's not, what's, you know, what's a trust. I feel like so many people are so overwhelmed,in making some of these choices, you know? That's when I feel like going back to what you said earlier, which is that connect with somebody who is from there. Connect with somebody who knows who is a local, or who is part of the local community. and that's how you're gonna be able to, to realize that a Bedouin camp is the way to go, you know?

it's fascinating, and honestly, Karthika, you're helping me right now a little bit to see our roles in even a new light, I would say, because that idea of us spreading that information and helping somebody make that decision, maybe a better informed decision, honestly, I haven't thought about it in that way too much in the past.

So thank you. I actually appreciate that. I'm going to take it on. I'm going to take it forward through, uh, with me. Cause that's, that's a really beautiful way to put it.

[00:50:11] KG: and you know, and maybe it's. Because I'm in this space, right? because now when I, when I'm looking at a new place, I look at my friends, I look at their portfolios, I look at, you know, have they been there? Have they, do they know someone? And I feel like social media, for whatever it's, Bad things are, and there are a lot.

it's also, there's a lot of good. reaching out to somebody and saying, Hey, I'm, you know, I see you're from here, or I see you've written this, or, you know, I see you going there. Do you have any recommendations? do you know somebody who I can connect with because I want to get more information?

I was on an Arctic cruise over the summer with my daughter. And I, I just happened to go on the ship's Instagram, and I saw that there was another,writer, photographer who was on a previous,cruise with, with Aurora, and I just messaged her, and I said, Hey, I'm, you know, doing this, a month from now, and, and this was my first cruise.

So I was like, any advice, you know, how is the ship like and stuff like that? Just simple questions. And she gave me so much information, helpful information that, you know, I feel like I really benefited from that conversation. So am I saying everybody is going to respond to you? Probably not, but that shouldn't stop you from reaching out and saying, Hey, this is what I'm thinking, or I'm interested.

Can you point me in the right direction? Or do you know someone who'd be willing to talk to you? It's incredible how many people are willing to help if you just ask.

At least that's, that's my, that's my experience has been,

again, it goes back to the whole, you know, people are what make a place beautiful.

[00:51:40] YD: And, and even to what we said earlier about, you know, how community is a, is a support mechanism that we have and reaching out and asking for help, which may feel like a burden in some scenarios, but actually more, more often than not, people are willing to help and it even ties back to pitching,

you know, and, and, even though you might not get a response or even though you might get a rejection, somebody at some point will say yes.

[00:52:07] KG: Yes.

[00:52:08] YD: And give your story an avenue to, to be published. So it's interesting, just so many parallels to the whole conversation that we had today, which I, which I absolutely love. And that's why I love talking to you, Karthika.

I find that our conversations are always,really soul nourishing, you know?

[00:52:25] KG: Yes. I know we start off with one thing and then we kind of go across the room to something completely different and eventually get back. yes, like, or is my friend.

[00:52:39] YD: So, I think we're going to start closing, even though I don't know how this hour has passed already, we just started talking. But I want to ask you one final question, and that is, you know, you've mentioned a couple of things that you've done, recently, you've been on an Arctic cruise with your daughter, you went and produced this incredible story of one of the smallest nations in California and what they're doing.

You know, you've been to Jordan, you've been to so many places over the past few years. What would you say brings you the most joy and delight in your life right now?

[00:53:12] KG: So my kids are older now. I have one out of the house already, and one's in high school. And for me, honestly, it's always been sharing this journey with them. I love traveling with them. Yes, they can be an absolute pain at times, but I love traveling with them. I'm not a solo traveler. I don't do well in big groups, but I don't do well in, in just by myself.

For me, ideally is ex sharing that experience with somebody who really matters to me or people who matter to me. So for me, it's been, this journey has been so much more fulfilling in, there's those experiences where I've been able to kind of share it with them or share it with a good friend, because I feel like, I gain a lot more in terms of. My experience, my daughter on the cruise, she's very much a social butterfly and it was a small cruise. It was just 38 of us, but I swear, I think the second day Neneka knew everybody's name and she was having a conversation with everybody and she forced me to, you know, she's like, okay, the two weeks that we are on this cruise, we are not going to eat by ourselves.

We are going to try and eat with everybody at a couple of times. And you know, I love, that idea. And so for me, I want to try and, you know, I learned something from her on that cruise, whereas, you know, yes, I talk about it being about people, but sometimes, you know, we kind of don't want to take that first step.

We, especially introverts like me, it's just, it takes a little bit for me to kind of open up and, you know, can share with someone and so, but she was just like, boom, she's out. She's like making all these friends and she had friends, like, I think the oldest person was like 75 years old and she's chatting with him and she's talking to him and it was such a beautiful thing to see.

I learned something from, from them, from my family every time we travel. So I love traveling.

[00:55:01] YD: As someone who's traveled with your family too, I can attest. To the fact that it is so fun, your family is so fun. And I had so much fun with you guys and, hope that you have lots more opportunities to do that, with your family and with the people you love.

[00:55:19] KG: um,

yes, I know. I hope so, too. you know, especially with one out of the house, it's, it's definitely challenging, but, Yeah, I think it's just, like, for me, the kind of traveler that I am and the kind of person that, you know, I aspire to be. I want to have those experiences with someone because I feel I learn so much more from that person.

You know, as long as the connection is there.

[00:55:41] YD: Absolutely. And that's why we travel at the end of the day to learn something, to expand our horizons, to really make our life and more interesting journey on this planet. So

[00:55:52] KG: Yes, for sure. my first press trip. I still remember the friends I made, the experiences I had because it was a pleasant, you know, it was a really good experience. I still remember the first time I traveled with my kids. Um, first few of the,travel experiences that we had, like I had with my family, my parents.

I remember those things. So I think, you know, the, the more we kind of, do some of these things that are enriching for us, whatever that means for you. I think at the end of the day, when you think back, you have good memories. So, like you said, that's what life is all about.

[00:56:22] YD: Awesome. Well, Karthika, thank you so much. Another beautiful conversation. Let's not wait seven, eight seasons to, to have another catch up. I really love the distances we covered today, we traveled to India, we traveled to Jordan together. We, touched on some really important topics. So I really appreciate it.

And I can't wait to see you again, somewhere fabulous in the world.

[00:56:45] KG: Thank you for having me, Yulia.

[00:56:48] YD: Thank you so much for listening to our podcast today. If you've been enjoying listening to our show, please take a moment to leave us a rating or review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify, or share this episode on social media. Our lovely theme music this season, Abbad El Shams, is provided by Rowan Roshni, a Palestinian Balkan singer based in Jordan who experiments across genres.

Our partner this season is Visit Jordan. My name is Yulia Denisyuk and I will see you next week. Take care and safe travels.